851 Hydraulic tubes

M-MAN · Dec 27, 2011

Reading the post's on re-sleeving the high pressure tube is interesting. Thinking about doing that when I get around to rebuilding my pump.(PM) I'm curious as to whether anyone has re-sleeved the return tube as well?

Kurt-NEPA · Dec 28, 2011

I asked the same question several months ago. The only answer I got was that the suction tube never leaks, leave it alone.

In any case, I did the pressure tube on my 660 and so far it working well.

Maybe someone else will chime in.

Tater_51 · Dec 30, 2011

Kurt, I have everything cleaned up ready to go. When I slid the new tube in it went about 28 7/16" before stopping. On your post your tube measured 26 11/16". I also have the 5 speed. I'm I missing something?? I plan on backing it off 1/2" or so but I will still be around 28" in length on final cut. Just want to make sure before I cut the tube and epoxy anything in. Thanks, Terry

Tater_51 · Dec 30, 2011

reread the post, measure the length of the trans and cut tube, got it! Apparently the tube can extend a couple inches further into the hydraulic sump past the trans joint.

Kurt-NEPA · Dec 30, 2011

Terry, I would make the tube just a bit short of the length of the transmission housing. Maybe a 1/4 inch or less.

You are right, you can push the tube through the transmission and on into the center section by a couple of inches. I wouldn't do that.

Sounds like you are making progress - great news.

Kurt

Kurt-NEPA · Dec 30, 2011

Terry, I just measured my 5 spd. The length of the housing is 26-11/16". I think I would cut the tube 26-5/8" or a little less. The leak won't be the end 1" on either end. The tube is press fit there, so no leak. When you put it in with the epoxy, just make it flush with the end of the old tube. That way it will come up about 1/16" short of the other end. That allows for some wiggle room.

Kurt

Tater_51 · Jan 1, 2012

Is there suppose to be any fluid movement in the transmission case when in neutral at idle? I thought my job went well but maybe not!

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 1, 2012

Not much movement in mine. Depending on your setup, you may see some fluid come down from above.

How does the lift work? How did the pump bleeding go?

JMOR · Jan 1, 2012

(quoted from post at 17:10:36 01/01/12) Is there suppose to be any fluid movement in the transmission case when in neutral at idle? I thought my job went well but maybe not!

ransmission....gears turning bound to churn oil some. Press in clutch to stop gears & look again.

Tater_51 · Jan 1, 2012

Well..........I'm sorry to report that my repair did not fair to well. I was meticulous in cleaning the tube etc. Waited 48 hours for epoxy to seal. Started tractor today, hydraulics actually worked and responded much better. When I checked fluid, I still had some transfer. When I unscrewed the fill plug on top of the trans I have a stream of fluid shooting out the fill hole right at me, thats in neutral at idle. Obviously that pressure line did not seal. I used JB weld marine, had it oozing out the end when I was pushing it in. Anyways, it was worth the effort, I enjoy being underneath that tractor, wrenching away. Looks like a tractor split in the spring and remove trans and replace the tube with one from walts. I'm looking at the manual now, looks pretty straight forward. Will probably have to take to dealer to have the old one driven out as it requires special tooling. I can still use this winter, just have to drain and transfer fluids after use. This time I used 134D in both sumps just in case. Anyways, thanks for all the help and support, I wish it would have worked, just gives me a little more time to get intimate with this tractor. Regards, Terry

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 1, 2012

Wow Terry!, Terrible news - sounds like the leak is much worse than it was before. That's a lot of fluid to get pumped in. Lets think this though before you go further.

Jesse (JMOR), are you there?

I can't see how putting a sleeve in the tube could make things worse, but I also can't see any other way for that much fluid to get into the tranny.

Possibly a serious leak where the original tube seals to the tranny housing? I'm just guessing here.

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 1, 2012

Sump seal can't do it that fast!

Tater_51 · Jan 1, 2012

Well, after clutching it I was able to look down into the trans, no gear movement. No outward spraying of any kind, but as I sat at idle after a few minutes I could see the level rise. It rose 1 gear tooth in about 5 minutes. So, I assume its still the pressure line. So if I have this straight, it either has to be the pressure line or the sump seal. If I get both of those replaced I should not have a further problem?

Tater_51 · Jan 1, 2012

well, on the + side the 3 point does respond much faster although it still "flutters" a little bit coming up. I had this tractor in to a MF dealer for some work. They took off the 3 point top cover and replaced seals (3 point would not raise), replaced the seal on the PTO, among other things. Prior to this repair I had no problem with transfer, but I only have had the tractor a month or so.......

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 1, 2012

Gotta ask a simple question Terry. What's the level of the hyd fluid in the center section? Is it going down when the tranny fluid goes up.

Just checking the basics.

Also questioning what the dealer may have done to cause this - seems unlikely to me, but maybe.

Tater_51 · Jan 1, 2012

I had the hydraulic fluid up on the stick, at the full mark. That was prior to the initial start up and the 3 point coming back to the up position. I had filled the trans to just the point where it seeped out the pipe plug. After running down the end of the road and around the neighbors I checked and found the hydraulic fluid down on the stick. When I removed the pipe plug on the trans about 8-10 ounces of fluid came out. The dealer delt with the lift cover, pto seal, and various filters. My feeling was that once the seals, etc. were replaced in the lift cover the pressure may have increased casuing a rupture in the tube. I'll state that I know nothing about hydraulics, just my thought.

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 1, 2012

Now I'm feeling a bit better Terry.

The hydraulic fluid will drop a bit as everything fills up. And losing a couple of ounces out of the the tranny plug is no big deal. As the tranny heats up and the oil gets agitated it will do that. Mine did the same thing. The next time it was fine.

I think I would let it sit for overnight and try it again. Don't fill anything. I'm willing to bet it will look better next time.

Let's hope.

Kurt

Hobo,NC · Jan 1, 2012

(quoted from post at 21:23:23 12/27/11) Reading the post's on re-sleeving the high pressure tube is interesting. Thinking about doing that when I get around to rebuilding my pump.(PM) I'm curious as to whether anyone has re-sleeved the return tube as well?

May not be of much help as its hearsay,,, a guy I know slid a 3/8" steel brake line in his,,, he installed a o-ring behind the flair on the brake line and claims it fixed his....

What I can not see is how this are any insertion of a tube will repair it and the other end is not sealed.... What am I miss'n...

John Smith8N · Jan 1, 2012

(quoted from post at 04:13:45 01/02/12)

(quoted from post at 21:23:23 12/27/11) Reading the post's on re-sleeving the high pressure tube is interesting. Thinking about doing that when I get around to rebuilding my pump.(PM) I'm curious as to whether anyone has re-sleeved the return tube as well?

Click to expand...

May not be of much help as its hearsay,,, a guy I know slid a 3/8" steel brake line in his,,, he installed a o-ring behind the flair on the brake line and claims it fixed his....

What I can not see is how this are any insertion of a tube will repair it and the other end is not sealed.... What am I miss'n...

I could never understand the fascination with patch up jobs. Just pull the bad tube out and hammer a new one back place. Doesn't take a lot of time and a split isn't required. Why cobble it?

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 1, 2012

Agreed Hobo - that can't work.

The epoxy method seals the entire length of the tube.

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 1, 2012

John, I'm with you on this - I hate patch jobs. If I can avoid them, I do.

But this time I chose it. I was worried about hammering on transmission and busting something loose that I could not fix. Secondly, my confidence in after market parts is shaky. If I got the tube out and the new one didn't fit, I was SOL. The press fit worried me.

So I tried the sleeve with epoxy route. So far it working. In any case, I have to split the tractor next year for other work. If it leaks - Ill hammer the tube out. At least the sleeve still lets you get the job done.

BTW, How can you hammer the tube out without a split between the transmission and center section?

John Smith8N · Jan 2, 2012

(quoted from post at 06:58:13 01/02/12) John, I'm with you on this - I hate patch jobs. If I can avoid them, I do.

But this time I chose it. I was worried about hammering on transmission and busting something loose that I could not fix. Secondly, my confidence in after market parts is shaky. If I got the tube out and the new one didn't fit, I was SOL. The press fit worried me.

So I tried the sleeve with epoxy route. So far it working. In any case, I have to split the tractor next year for other work. If it leaks - Ill hammer the tube out. At least the sleeve still lets you get the job done.

BTW, How can you hammer the tube out without a split between the transmission and center section?

Remove the hydraulic manifold. Thread the inside of the pressure tube with a 7/16-20 tap about 2 inches deep. Screw in a 4-5 inch length of threaded rod or a long stud threaded on both ends. Slip a 2" length of 1/2 or 3/4 pipe over the stud. Put on a washer and nut and tighten. That will pull the tube out. After it's pulled out the first inch it will come the rest of the way out by hand. Insert the new tube and carefully hammer it home with a suitable driver that won't flatten the end. Install the manifold and refill with oil.

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 2, 2012

Perfect solution John - Thanks much. I like that much better than hammering.

Making a tool to put in the new tool should be easy. Just turn the end of a 3/4" or 1/2" rod down to about 3/8 so that it slides into the tube bit and hammer away. Carefully.

Thanks,

Kurt

Tater_51 · Jan 2, 2012

On replacement tubes, reading online most have stated that the aftermarket ones (Walts) had to be machined, that they were not stepped like the originals. has that changed? Is there a replacement that is factory correct out of the box?

Tater_51 · Jan 3, 2012

received e-mail from fellow that used one of the tubes from Walts. Stated he had to have the tube turned down on a lathe to fit properly. Further, that it was just a length of .500 hydraulic tube (seems like a lot of $$ for standard .500 tube). Checked with Cross Creek also, advised their tube is not stepped but collapses upon installation. I have a couple other e-mails out, will let you know what I find.

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 3, 2012

Keep us posted Terry. I wonder what tube John Smith was using.

John Smith8N · Jan 3, 2012

(quoted from post at 02:36:09 01/04/12) Keep us posted Terry. I wonder what tube John Smith was using.

I've never used one of the aftermarket replacements, but I can't imagine they are selling a straight piece of tubing that doesn't fit for an outrageous price. I WOULD believe the replacements are not quite right and may require some "adjustment" to fit correctly. Almost every part you get anymore is "not quite right". But they have to be making some effort to get them close. Otherwise, every one they sell will end up being returned for a refund.
I have a lathe and have always made my own replacements from standard thick walled hydraulic tubing. Partially because I know it will fit right, and partially because I'm too cheap to buy one ready made.

Tater_51 · Jan 3, 2012

I certainly hope that's not the case. I would hope that the vendors are making an honest attempt to provide us with a quailty part. In the e-mail I received, the fellow had to take the tube to a shop and have it turned in order to fit properly. Just seemed like a lot of money for a tube that still needed additional machining for proper fit. I'm also checking with the local CNH dealer to find where they would get their service replacement part. Might be further ahead to just buy the hydraulic tube (locally) and take that and your original tube to a shop and have it made to spec.

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 4, 2012

Terry, Here a sketch of the tube if it helps.

I picked it someplace and forget who did it. So I can't vouch for it's accuracy. But it interesting to see what the tube should look like.

Note that one end is over 1/2", so a piece of 1/2" tube would need to be expanded a bit.

HTH

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 4, 2012

John. Do you remember if one end was over 1/2". If it was 1/2" at the large end, it would be simple to make one. If its over 1/2" life gets more complicated.

Thanks for all your help.

Kurt

Tater_51 · Jan 4, 2012

Boy, .005" over .500 on the big end, that's not much. That's the same measurements (your diagram) I found on one of the posts. Read where someone had used loc-tite on the large end for a sealer after turning down the .500 tube. I haven't got any response from CNH, may give them a call. Looks to me like wherever you buy it's going to need a little work. This is going to have to wait for spring for me, my warm garage now has my other toys stored inside. I'm going to give the "threaded rod", pull method, from the front a try but may split the rear to be safe assured that everything goes in as it should.

Tater_51 · Jan 5, 2012

It would be nice to have a couple of reponses from owners that have purchased and installed the replacement tube. Might clear up a lot of concerns.

Tater_51 · Jan 6, 2012

Received another response from same fellow who purchased the vendor's tube. Stated the one end had to be expanded (front) as it was too loose. He used a steel ball and pounded it in about 3/4" and drove it back out. This is getting way to complicated.

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 6, 2012

It sure is getting complicated Terry.

Did you ever give your tractor another try? I'm just really surprised the sleeve didn't work.

Tater_51 · Jan 6, 2012

I did today, still thinking I'm getting pressurized fluid leaking into the trans. In one of the responses I received the fellow found his leak at about 25", right at the end. My thought is that by the time my tube made it to the end it may have not had enough JB on it to fully seal the last couple inches. I just can't believe you can't purchase a "correct" replacement. We haven't had enough snow yet this season to even worry about getting this tractor going, probably wait till spring now. I have a little 68' JD 112 that has never let me down when it comes to blowing snow.

Kurt-NEPA · Jan 7, 2012

I guess it all depends where the leak was along the tube. Bummer.

TOH was looking into making these tubes, but haven't heard in a while. Might want to talk to him.

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