MH 30, wont turn over

I purchased a M-H 30 a couple of days ago. It started right up and ran great when I test drove it, with everything working well, minus minimal brakes and a broken brake return spring, which I didn't consider to be a problem. I can repair the brakes once I've become more used to the tractor and i have the spring ordered for it.

I drove it around my land a bit (testing to see how muddy it was and what wasn't frozen what was) then parked it in my shed after hauling it back to my house,. When I went to start it about 6 hours later to show my wife, I couldn't get it started.

It turned over fine, except I inadvertently flooded it and it didn't start. While trying to start it, the battery went dead.

I thought the carb float was stuck, so I drained the carb and noticed some discolored gas/junk from the bowl. I looked in the gas tank (which I had not done after hauling and noticed that there was debris--like bits of plastic or something in the bottom. So I drained the fuel line and cleaned it thinking there was maybe something in it too. I have good fuel flow to the carb. I will take the tank off and clean it once spring gets here and its warmer.

The carb had minimal fuel flow out of the drain flow. This made me think the float valve was stuck.

I did not take the carb off, I just sprayed carb cleaner inside of the gas inlet and the air intake and the bowl, really to get an idea of just how dirty/bad things were inside it. There was some dark murkey debris that came out, but everything appeared to flow freely. I have ordered a carb kit, but it wont be here for a few more days.

I charged the battery, put it back in two days later to see if I could get it started with the carb as it is, and it wouldn't turn over. It sort of half turned one time, then stopped. I thought the battery was just bad --its a 2 year battery that was 3 years old and its cold (below freezing) in my shed now.

I got a new battery today (4 days later) exactly like the one in it and hooked it up, but again everything is dead. I will start testing wires tomorrow to make sure current is going where it should be.

I tried to jump start it from the starter with my truck, it'll jerk, but then not turn over. I do not have a hand crank for this tractor. I assuming that i'm going to have to put it in gear and try to roll it and make sure the motor is not frozen now.

Again it ran great when I test drove it not 6 days ago...so this came on only after I put it in my shed.

I had planned on changing the oil anyway, what is in there appears to be something thick...thicker than what I'd expect from the 5w20 ive seen specified for this tractor. Is it possible the cold weather and the wrong oil has made it difficult to turn the engine over? or do I need to be worried about a bad starter or bad solenoid or am I completely missing the boat with this.

Again its a 1950 Massey-Harris Rowcrop tractor, with the 4 cylinder MFB162G Continental engine in it. It has been converted to 12 volt.

Thank you for any thoughts or suggestions. I'd hoped to have this tractor running after the new battery as i need to move some down trees with it.

I bet it the push starter switch. seen lots that you can push on and nothing happens, they get corroded inside and do not make contact. hook your battery right to the starter and I bet she wheels over, plus your torchering that starter with 12 volts. those old worn out engines need at least a 10-30 oil in the winter. 20-50 in the summer. 5-20 is for these new cars not tractors, well if it was -30 or -40 you could use it.

(quoted from post at 19:20:20 12/17/19) I bet it the push starter switch. seen lots that you can push on and nothing happens, they get corroded inside and do not make contact. hook your battery right to the starter and I bet she wheels over, plus your torchering that starter with 12 volts. those old worn out engines need at least a 10-30 oil in the winter. 20-50 in the summer. 5-20 is for these new cars not tractors, well if it was -30 or -40 you could use it.

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Thank you for replying.

It's about 11F outside right now, and it'll probably get down to -10 or -teens at least for a while this winter and it maybe a whole lot colder. That's why I said 5-20 I've been told to run in this tractor. I'll change it again and go to a heavier weight once spring is here and I start using it more. I need to learn how this tractor runs too. I have the feeling she may be a finicky one, that or I just have made mistakes with her. I dont know.

I didn't convert the tractor to 12 volt. It was already done when I got it.

The starter push button switch on it is not original. it was replaced not to long ago. I ran a jumper wire across the two terminal pegs and nothing happened.

I did try to put the battery right on the starter, it "jumped" but did not turn over. there was fan movement, but then it stalled and i didn't push it and keep trying to crank it out of concern of something being locked up.

I also took a jumper cable off my truck, hooked it to the starter and it didnt' turn over, just moved a bit and then I again quit, because of concern of something being locked up and making it a whole lot worse.

I put it in gear and I am pretty sure I can rock it back and forth and the fan moves at least as far as I can rock it. It is in my shed and my truck was parked in front of it, so I need to move the truck out and give myself some room to roll it or jack up the rear end.


I did drain the oil tonight. It was black tractor oil to me that drained freely.... thick black tractor oil. What I noticed this evening was frost inside of the oil cap. I've never seen that before ever.... and it makes me think there was moisture inside of something that has now frozen with the temperature drop as the tractor cooled. .

Tomorrow I'm seriously debating putting a heat lamp on either side of the engine and warming it up until the inside the oil pan reads about 70F.(I have a long thermometer I can check temp with) to see what may thaw.

I'm also going to take the starter off and see if it turns without a load and trace the wires looking for some short or something.

Another thing came to mind. I have a w6 ih and when it gets
cold out you swear the engine is seized. When warms up it
turns over. Cannot turn it with a hand crank in cold. I am sure
the flywheel has dirt around it in the housing so in cold
weather it freezes to flywheel. Crazy but true.

(quoted from post at 22:51:22 12/17/19) Another thing came to mind. I have a w6 ih and when it gets
cold out you swear the engine is seized. When warms up it
turns over. Cannot turn it with a hand crank in cold. I am sure
the flywheel has dirt around it in the housing so in cold
weather it freezes to flywheel. Crazy but true.

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You may be onto something I haven't even thought about with this tractor. I know the tractor hsa been outside in the weather at least a year. There is frozen dirt/plant material (it was used to pull a brushog/sickle mower and I think a baler too) on the frame rails that I cannot remove right now.

t also has a lot of thick grease caked around all of the bearings (this includes front wheels and basically every grease fitting I can find on it). The flywheel likely has a whole bunch of dirt around it. I wonder if there is moisture in and round the bearings and the flywheel that has frozen.

I dont have a hand crank for it to really test if the engine is locked. Thats why I've tried rocking it. it is so weird to me for it to be locked if it is considering how well it ran when I test drove it.

The crank for the JR, 20, 25, 30, 33, 44 are interchangeable aren't they? Do you have any idea where to get dimensions for the hand crank? are they interchangeable with the (cheaper) AC cranks?

Thank you again!

Pull the plugs and try turning it over by turning the fan...that may help determine
if the flywheel is dragging.

Ben

Hopefully just loose connection.

Pull the plugs, check for liquid, really make sure antifreeze is good if that cold.

(quoted from post at 16:05:29 12/18/19) Hopefully just loose connection.

Pull the plugs, check for liquid, really make sure antifreeze is good if that cold.

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Thanks for the suggestions above.


Antifreeze was a little low when I parked it, so I added to the radiator. What I added is good to -45. what was in there is good to about -10.... so it should be OK. I wish I'd have been able to start it to mix things better than what has happened, but I think it'll be OK.

One of the plugs is a bit rusty and stuck. I added some penetrating oil to it tonight and will let it sit over night. I planned on changing the plugs anyway... the two I checked aren't "bad" but this way I know what is in there and when they were put in. I just need to get that one thats a bit stuck out.

The one bolt on the starter is also a bit rusty. Rather than bur it up cranking on it, I penetrating oiled it too. It'll hopefully be loose tomorrow and i can get in and get a look at things.



*I broke a spark plug off one time, so I'll be the first to admit I'm paranoid about breaking them. I'd rather just add some penetrating oil and let it do its work vs messing up and having to deal with that again.


Thanks again for the suggestions everyone has made.

I borrowed a hand crank from a friend and the engine turns easily (relatively speaking) so nothing is frozen/locked in the engine.

I took Rustred's advice and got a new pushbutton switch. I'll put it on tomorrow. It will make me happy if its something that simple.

I am also replacing the battery cables...they aren't "bad" but they have those cheap "bolt on" ends and I've had issues with my truck making good connections with those, especially for cold starts. I'm hopefully its just an electrical kerfuffle. I guess worst case scenario if this doesn't get it to crank, I'll start chasing a problem with the starter.

Thanks again everyone for your suggestions. I appreciate them.

Does that model have a neutral safety switch? If so be sure the transmission is in neutral, not just the clutch depressed. Also check current across the switch when in neutral.

None on that era MH.

Ben

this is a 1940's era tractor. It even has a hand crank!

So I spent most of today going through things with this tractor.... I have never seen a frozen oil filter before, but this one had it... frozen solid in the canister. I was able to work it loose with a heat lamp, some time and patience and then clean up the lines to and from the canister. There was about an inch of sludge so thick it wouldn't drain out the plug hole in the bottom of the oil filter canister, which I really think the filter in it was sitting on top of (as if someone didn't flush out the canister the last time they put a filter in, they just dropped it in and let it go), Both lines to the engine seemed to be clogged with this black gonk, but i got them free. Got a nice 3 inch long model of the inside of one of the lines too.

I removed all of external oil lines,, blew them out, cleaned them, cleaned out the canister, put in a new filter, drained the oil again (basically I guess the first oil change was an oil "flush"--its probably a good thing I need to oil the manure spreader next spring..... and then changed all of the major electrical wires out. The ground (negative) was cracking as I was moving things around and was annoyingly long. The positive was also slip shod put together where it attached to the push start. I changed out the button push start... I tested current to the starter... it was good... but the tractor is still dead in the water.

Push the starter button, nothing happens. it wont spin.... nothing. Again I can turn it over by hand without a problem.

At this point I think it has to be the starter. It died trying to start it the other day or something in it froze in a bad, bad way.

I've removed the starter and brought it inside to thaw overnight. I do not know if it has water or something else in it or what or if that is even possible. My pickup truck starter was full of oil when i replaced it last fall (gotta love how some older Fords drain oil onto the starter). Considering the oil canister, I'm thinking anything is possible.

The starter actually appears to be in good shape externally. The bearings/bushings are not loose or wobbly, the drive shaft turns freely. The ring gear of the flywheel also looks to be in good shape. I turned by hand all the way to check it. Wear is minimal. I am guessing both these gears were replaced when who ever owned it before opened up the engine. Unfortunately I do not have records of what was done or where or who did it.

I have not opened the starter yet. This is a starter type i've never worked on before. I really am a bit reluctant to open it unless I have a place I know I can get parts from.

I am assuming this is a brush issue if its not full of ice or something like that.

The starter is an Auto-Lite MZ-4072-8D starter.

Does anyone know where to get parts or a rebuild kit for that type of starter?

A parts diagram would also probably make things easier. Again this is a starter type I've never opened before, so I'm trying to have everything lined up before I get going.

Thank you.

I think i've found the problem.... Ice, gunk, and the starter itself.

I opened the starter up to get a feel of what things look like on the inside today. The band has been off that starter before, it has a tear in the rubber gasket over the brushes. As I was letting it thaw overnight, there was some fluid that drained out of it. Inside is what I'd call a rusty mess oily mess. It is basically like rust dust mixed with what I guess is engine oil coating everything. It is definitely not as "dry" as I'd like to see the inside of any type of electric motor. I am certain too that that little bit of water froze in it, causing more problems. It hesitated starting a couple of times when I was testing it and loading and unloading/moving it. I really thought that was the battery, but looking at things now, I think the starter may have been acting up. It was just warmed up and it started. Once it cooled off it was more than the starter could handle.

I think I can take it apart and clean it up with some time, but i have to figure out how to dry out the armature. Tt definitely needs new brushes, the ones on it have seen better days and have worn in a way I think the one is making minimal contact with the commutator bars. Those contact points on the armature are worn, but I think saveable and I need a new rubber gasket under the band. Bushings etc seem tight. What i dont know is if anyone has done anything to this starter beyond opening it up before. I need to clean stuff up inside to try to even figure that out.

Does anyone have a clue of a part number for brushes for a Autolite MZ4072 starter? That cross references to newer Prestolite MZ4072 starters I think.... but looking for both I haven't been able to find anything online that is a direct reference.

I have to take it completely apart to measure the brush dimensions themselves, which I can do, but I am hoping someone just has a reference.

I have found online places selling stuff like these: http://kfparts.com/store/product/starter-motor-brush-set-for-auto-lite-1951-1952-henry-j/ but they dont reference a starter this old.

Thanks again for helping me get this tractor running. I appreciate the help.

Unless you have the equipment to actually test the starter components and turn the armature, you should consider taking it to a shop that rebuilds starters, generators, etc. If you don't think any of that is needed the shop can likely match your brushes and bushings if you take those in and talk with them. You might want to find and price a replacement starter, just to have an idea of the cost of that option. JMHO based on your description of what you found.

I have already ordered a backup starter in case there is more wrong with this one than I think there is. I also have access to a shop to test components if need be once it is cleaned up. This old of a starter is basically a simple electric motor that spins to engage the starter "clutch" mechanism when you push the starter button, there isn't a solenoid or anything more complex on it. I've rebuilt and hand wound electric motors and small engine, and automotive starters in the past. If it was a newer, more complex starter I'd have already taken it to a shop.

At this point I really want to see if I can do it...and I have a backup on the way.

My concern with this tractor is I have no history of who has done over the last 70 plus years and it appears more was done than I originally thought and some of the things done are done differently than I would have done them.

I do have the part numbers from the brushes that are in the starter. I probably should have been more clear in I am trying to find out if these are original p[art number brushes or are they a miss matched something someone put in at some other time? The sets I've found online do not have this brush combination together.

I went the shop close by I know that does tractor starters yesterday. The brushes in this starter were not the factory spec brushes. they were completely mismatched (although close) The shop happened to have factory spec brushes on hand (all 4 for 10 dollars---much cheaper than the internet). So I'm going to work on cleaning things up and seeing what is what now that I have parts I know I need.

The tractor fired right up off the crank starter yesterday and ran well. We are moving tree limbs with it today after crank starting it. It has ran well so far

I think it boils down to someone putting in the wrong part at some point and things wearing uneven in the starter. I'll get it back to how it should be.

Thanks again everyone for the thoughts with this tractor. I appreciate it.