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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Spark found

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CNKS

05-17-2007 19:05:05




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This is in reference to the "no spark" post I made, that at 9:00 PM CDT 5/17 is on page 3. I appreciate all the answers (some of which could be used as a Doctoral Dissertation). I knew it was something simple, or something I overlooked. I put the old condensor back on and noticed an unconnected wire at the solenoid. I am 95% sure I had that wire connected at one time, but may have taken it of at some time while trying to find the spark, so I am not 100% sure it was the condensor -- I looked at that wire a thousand times, maybe it unconnected itself, but I am probably just brain dead. I have good spark from the coil wire, and I think good spark at the plugs. The tractor still has not started. With other things to do today, I have not fully checked it out. I suspect timing. On the 460 (C221), the oil pump runs off the same cam gear as the distributer, in fact the distributer is connected to the oil pump. You time the oil pump at TDC, then install the distributer in the correct position. I hope I have the oil pump set right, because on the utility you cannot remove the oil pan without lowering the front axle because the stabilizer arms are welded to the axle, thus the whole thing needs to be moved. I installed the oil pan quite a while back before I installed the axle, just to get things covered up and intentionally left out the oil pump as I was going to rebuild it. Before I installed the pump, I removed the pan (barely) with the axle installed, but when I installed the oil pump, the pan would not go back on. Lot of fun moving that axle around with the front of the tractor on jack stands. Will work some more tommorrow. Main problem now is that I do not have a 460 hand crank, and cannot get a wrench on the crank bolt because I have installed the radiator fan and shrouding, and that all has to come off before I can turn the nut on the front pulley (that the hand crank fits in) with my wrench. I suppose I can tighten the fan belt to the point of breaking something and try to turn the fan, maybe with the plugs out. Possibly and use the starter button, but I can't push the button and watch the pulley, and my arms aren't long enough to reach #1 while holding down the button. Reason I am suspicious of this is that when I set TDC, I turned the engine over until I felt compression on #1. Then you are supposed to continue cranking until the engine is at the TDC mark. By the time I got there I could no longer feel the compression. The thing could be a few degrees after TDC, for whatever reason. The cam gear matches the marks on the crank gear, the pulley is keyed, thus there is only one way it goes on. AND, it could be fuel, although the carb was rebuilt and the tractor ran before I tore it down. If you don't hear from me tommorrow, I ain't got it started yet.

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Brownie450

05-18-2007 18:38:54




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 Re: Spark found in reply to CNKS, 05-17-2007 19:05:05  
Didn't catch if you had the engine apart-- as in the cam or crank. Is the crank & cam timed correctly? Sounds from your description that compression is falling off as you approach TDC. Just wondering.



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CNKS

05-18-2007 19:01:13




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 Re: Spark found in reply to Brownie450, 05-18-2007 18:38:54  
I started with an empty block except I had the machine shop install the sleeves. The marks on the crank and cam gear were matched. But, when I have problems like this it makes me wonder.



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El Toro

05-18-2007 04:24:05




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 Re: Spark found in reply to CNKS, 05-17-2007 19:05:05  
It's usually something simple. Since the tractor won't start you need to remove No1 sparkplug and bring No1 piston to TDC on the compression stroke
until your timing marks are aligned.

Then remove the distributor cap and see where your rotor is pointing. It should be at the No1 plug tower. Very easy to be 180 degrees out. Its happened to all of us. Hal



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CNKS

05-18-2007 06:33:21




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 Re: Spark found in reply to El Toro, 05-18-2007 04:24:05  
I did that, but I need to check it again. My finger test may not be exact -- UNLESS -- can you feel any compression for, say, 1/4-1/2 revolution on the exhaust stroke? It seems when I thought I had it on the compression stroke I lost compression before the timing marks lined up. But, I definitely had what I would call good compression, very audible air escaping for most of the stroke -- so I think I had it on the compression stroke. I have never, to my knowledge felt anything on the exhaust stroke.

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El Toro

05-18-2007 06:45:08




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 Re: Spark found in reply to CNKS, 05-18-2007 06:33:21  
If you're uncertain whether you are at TDC is to look at both valves on No1 cylinder. They should be closed. Hal



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CNKS

05-18-2007 19:08:23




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 Re: Spark found in reply to El Toro, 05-18-2007 06:45:08  
I might have to do that -- I am 99.9% sure it is, as with a good light I can see the piston. I'm currently comparing TDC with up to 4 degree advanced static timing. IH manual says TDC, IT manual says 2 degrees before. I am not sure that the ballast resistor is not somehow messing me up. I'm going to remove it and hope I don't fry something. The spark looks good to me, but something is still not right. Carb is clean, good fuel flow.

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El Toro

05-19-2007 03:54:21




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 Re: Spark found in reply to CNKS, 05-18-2007 19:08:23  
When your No1 piston is at TDC on the compression stroke, your timing mark on your damper pulley should be aligned with the pointer. Then remove the distributor cap and see where the rotor is pointing. If you are hand cranking the engine
once you feel that compression you can drop a large handle screwdriver on top of the piston. Make sure the handle is large enough so you don't lose the screwdriver. Then you watch the screwdriver as it rises as you slowly crank the engine. When that screwdriver quits rising your piston should be at TDC. That rotor should at the No1 plug tower. If it isn't gently pull the distributor and rotate the rotor to the No1 plug tower and reinstall the distributor. Both valves
will closed on No1 piston when at TDC too. Hal

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Bob M

05-18-2007 06:13:32




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 Re: Spark found in reply to El Toro, 05-18-2007 04:24:05  
Hal - That's exactly happened to my father in law when he rebuilt an Oliver 1850 (gas) a few years ago. Somehow he got the oil pump drive installed 180 deg out of time.

After much wailing and gnashing of teeth about having to drain and drop the pan to correct the error, I suggested he simply move each plug wire 180 deg around on the distributor cap. Tractor has been running like this for 15+ years now. (Only downside is the distributor cap nipple marked #1 now supplies the #6 cylinder...)

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El Toro

05-18-2007 07:02:16




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 Re: Spark found in reply to Bob M, 05-18-2007 06:13:32  
If anyone that has worked on engines and hasn't done that I think I would like to meet them.

One of the biggest mistakes is to install a mag or distributor when the punch marks on the camgear
and crankshaft gear are aligned. Even though they're timed correctly your No1 piston isn't at TDC. They will be about 180 degres out. Hal



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CNKS

05-18-2007 06:26:37




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 Re: Spark found in reply to Bob M, 05-18-2007 06:13:32  
I am positive that it is timed to the compression stroke of #1, with the tab on the top end of the oil pump turned 30 degrees clockwise from horizontal -- I'm just not sure that I had it set on exact TDC. I am going to take off the carb first to make sure nothing happened to it in the 2 years it was off. It was rebuilt, used for a few minutes, drained and removed, but I could have some rust.



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bil b va

05-18-2007 00:50:29




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 Re: Spark found in reply to CNKS, 05-17-2007 19:05:05  

i needed to turn my tractor over while working on it and didn't have a hand crank .sooo i took a piece of pipe that would fit the crank nut hole (3/8 i think) bored a 1/4 "hole near the end and brazed in a 1/4 " pin . used a pipe wrench on it . could have made a crank but didn't bother .PS you are a lot of help here . thanks bill... hope to learn to paint soon



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CNKS

05-18-2007 06:21:37




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 Re: Spark found in reply to bil b va, 05-18-2007 00:50:29  
I appreciate your compliment. Unfortunately for me, I seem to know everything except what I need to know at the time!



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F-Dean

05-18-2007 05:40:20




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 Re: Spark found in reply to bil b va, 05-18-2007 00:50:29  
Use the "Twisted Belt" Method. Less work and no hurry!



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JayWalt0

05-17-2007 19:57:21




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 Re: Spark found in reply to CNKS, 05-17-2007 19:05:05  
Good Luck Dude!!



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Janicholson

05-17-2007 19:49:24




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 Re: Spark found in reply to CNKS, 05-17-2007 19:05:05  
Lift one rear wheel and put it in high gear. Pull the plugs and it will be very easy to turn it with the rear wheel. The compression will taper off as the piston nears TDC due to far less piston movement. you can even put a piece of vinyl plastic in the spark plug hole to assure you are nearing TDC. (remember that TDC can be on the exhaust stroke as well as ccompression, it is still necessary to check for the compression with a thumb, or a whistle placed in a rubber gromet to fit the plug hole. Good luck, JimN

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CNKS

05-18-2007 06:19:59




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 Re: Spark found in reply to Janicholson, 05-17-2007 19:49:24  
Yes, I have been brain dead lately -- I just turned one rear wheel last week to make sure the starter was not locked. I will probably try that--thanks!



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