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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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horsepower of a farmall 450

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bradley brackin

07-13-2007 21:48:10




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i would like to know what is the engine horsepower of a farmall 450 and the pto horsepower also if different.




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Jason Simmerman

07-14-2007 06:21:31




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to bradley brackin, 07-13-2007 21:48:10  
Here comes a novel. With tractors flywheel HP doesn't mean dooky, torque is what does your work. That's why it was never advertised before. Marketing is a wonderful thing. In any event, horsepower is just merely a calculation of rotational torque thrown into an equasion. Well they say it's about 55 hp on the belt, but PTO is generally the same so we'll say it's 55 on the PTO as well even though the Nebraska test doesn't mention PTO HP. Well the formula to figure out hp is HP = (torque * RPM) / 5252. We can't get an exact figure because the only way to do that is to pull an engine out of a 450 and put it on a dyno machine but knowing this and the fact that you loose approximately 15% of your engine power through the driveline (industry standard on manual transmission automobiles, automatic transmissions loose about 20%.) That might not be the exact parasitic loss in the machine becase we are talking about a tractor not a car, but it'll get us close. So we need to know what the torque numbers of the PTO to start this equasion. Well we are going to assume the rating was at exactly 540 rpm on the PTO. Well that puts the engine RPM at about 1465 or so. Using the 540 rpm estimate we know by using the formula above that the PTO has about 535 ft/lbs of torque. Now take the engine rpm and the PTO rpm and see what kind of mechanical advantage the PTO has via gearing. Well, we figured that the engine advantage is about 2.7:1 so we take the torque reading from the PTO multiply it by 1.15 to factor in driveline loss and then divide the number by 2.7 which gives us about 227 ft/lbs of torque on the engine at about 1465 rpms. Throw that number back into our equasion and you get about 63 hp which is about roughly what the engine hp is of a 450. Granted this is done via rough estimations of driveline losses and the engine might actually make even more power at an engine speed greater than 1465 which the max rpm for the engine is 1600 I believe. But at least I feel it's relatively close enough that you have no more than a 10 hp error eithor way. This gives you a rough estimate.

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Hugh MacKay

07-14-2007 18:19:34




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to Jason Simmerman, 07-14-2007 06:21:31  
Jason: While I can see where your coming from, this all makes very little difference in wanting to know drawbar, pto and flywheel hp of a specific tractor, and each having the same engine. And yes flywheel hp was available from IH down through the years, however you had to ask. I can see the torque curve being important if you were trying to decide whether to go diesel, gas or LP. Very important in deciding which make of 50 hp tractor to buy.

If you take this 450 for example, knowing all three horsepower ratings tells you how efficient the rest of the tractor is. Questions like how much demand is hydraulic system creating even when not in use. Some of the early IPTO had a fair power demand when disengaged. Also important how much of the engine power reaches drawbar output.

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Janicholson

07-14-2007 11:02:43




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to Jason Simmerman, 07-14-2007 06:21:31  
Some of what you say makes sense, but the rationale is not true (sorry)
Torque is not work, it is force only. When a torque wrench is applied to a head bolt and 85 ftlbs of torque is applied, at the last instant when the bolt stops turning, no work is being done, no Horse Power is generated.
HP is the same category of measurment as Watts (KW actually) and a accurately rated one hundred HP device turning at its rated high RPM (lets say 4000rpm)will produce the same plowing ability ground speed depth etc, as a 100HP accurately rated device that turns 1000rpm.
Torque=force only.
HP=force X distance X time
JimN

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chadd

07-14-2007 16:24:40




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to Janicholson, 07-14-2007 11:02:43  
Just thought that I would say that I don't necessarily agree that Torque is a Force. That is like comparing apples and oranges. A force is the mass of an object multiplied by its acceleration. It has magnitude and direction and has units of Newtons or pound force. A torque is the applied force multiplied by the perpendicular distance between where the force is applied and the center of rotation. It has units of Newton-meters or pound-feet. If there is a 10 pound force applied to a gear tooth tangent to its circular profile and the gear is 2 feet in diameter, the torque applied to that gear is 20 lb.ft.

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Janicholson

07-14-2007 17:19:09




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to chadd, 07-14-2007 16:24:40  
Your inclusion of accerreration is the incorrect component. that is very specifically a speed/time factor. A cantilevered porch stresses its attachment to the house with force (bending moment on the joists) it is not cansuming energy, accerreration (unless the porch is failing), and not developing power.
A building applies force to the earth at the foundation, but it has no energy transfer(work)being done. JimN

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chadd

07-16-2007 13:32:57




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to Janicholson, 07-14-2007 17:19:09  
Am I right in understanding that you disagree that a force is equal to an object's mass mulitplied by its acceleration? Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not stated in Newton's second law of mechanics as follows (taken from Vector Mechanics for Engineers, page 4) "F=ma; where F, m, and a represent, respectively, the resultant force acting on the particle, the mass of the particle, and the acceleration of the particle expressed in a consistent system of units." If you simplify a porch on a house by a cantilever beam, it does experience forces and moments, as you stated. The downward force is the mass of the porch, (which acts at its center of mass) multiplied by the acceleration due to gravity (usually either 9.8 m/s^2 or 32.2 ft/s^2, although gravity is a weak function of elevation). The reason the porch doesn't fall is that it is balanced by an equal and opposite force upward at the base of the cantilever. However, because the two forces do not act at the same point, there is a bending moment present. Because the porch or canilever is static, it must be balanced by an equal and opposite moment at the base of the cantilever. I am not trying to play devil's advocate, and instead am just trying to understand.

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Janicholson

07-17-2007 08:52:41




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to chadd, 07-16-2007 13:32:57  
DearChadd,
The term force applies to both instances of acceleration, and static situations. Watts and horsepower are measurements of work which must dissipate power. and do some action, like heat up something, or move an axle against resistance.
Force without work is pressure or applied thrust, etc. It is allowed to be both, but Torque never equates to HP unless there is added information as to motion/time. (0.74569987158227022 kW (33,000 ft·lbf per minute) One pound lifted 33000 ft per minute. Good discussion, JimN

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arthur ward

07-14-2007 09:03:24




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 used your formuala for ih 300, correct me if wrong in reply to Jason Simmerman, 07-14-2007 06:21:31  
i would then assume an IH 300:
pto hp of 34
engine rpm of 1750

this would mean that the IH 300 has about 155 ft. lbs. of torque if i am not mistaken. than would be the reason it is capable of pulling a 3 bottom plow.
if i am correct then could you please verify my math and if i am not, could you tell me why?
thanks



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D Slater

07-14-2007 11:00:06




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 Re: used your formuala for ih 300, correct me if wrong in reply to arthur ward, 07-14-2007 09:03:24  
One report I have shows the 300 with the max. torque made from the belt pulley is 283.2 at 1050 engine RPM with dynamometter being turned around half the RPM as engine. Farmall 400 with 412.5 at engine RPM of 924. SM farmall 365.1 at 1064 engine RPM.



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arthur ward

07-14-2007 11:29:01




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 Re: used your formuala for ih 300, correct me if wrong in reply to D Slater, 07-14-2007 11:00:06  
d slater, i don't believe it can have more torque than the 450 mentioned above. just doesn't seem logical. what would be nice is to see some paperwork somewhere. if anyone has this please show a link or something.

it cannot have more than the d-17 allis either. that tractor has 288 ft lbs i guess according to tractor data.com



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D Slater

07-14-2007 13:40:01




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 Re: used your formuala for ih 300, correct me if wrong in reply to arthur ward, 07-14-2007 11:29:01  
I can't say for sure its right, all I can tell you its from Nebraska test # 538 on the Farmall 300. Unless I have a misprint it should be right. These figures won't be the same as flywheel torque. If you noticed I said the dynamometer was turning at roughly 1/2 of engine RPM from belt pulley. How was the D 17 tested for torque?



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arthur ward

07-14-2007 08:06:13




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to Jason Simmerman, 07-14-2007 06:21:31  
so the farmall super m is even less torque.
the wd45 has 288 ft. lbs. of torque and less pto h.p.
i wonder how they did that.



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the tractor vet

07-14-2007 06:07:08




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to bradley brackin, 07-13-2007 21:48:10  
That all depends on what all is in the engine can be anywhere from the 51 hp on up into the 80 hp range on the gassers and on the diesels that depends on just how far the screw is turned .



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sammy the RED

07-13-2007 22:37:01




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to bradley brackin, 07-13-2007 21:48:10  
Test #612, Gasoline Motor:

CHP drawbar is 51.25 h.p.
CHP belt pully is 57.05 h.p.



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georgeky

07-13-2007 21:59:05




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 Re: horsepower of a farmall 450 in reply to bradley brackin, 07-13-2007 21:48:10  
Nebraska tractor test say gas 55.3 PTO and 51.3 drawbar. Diesel 48.8 PTO and 45.2 DB. LP says 54.1 PTO and 50.0 DB. It does not give an engine spec.



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