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Hard Starting T035 after running a while

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joel kercher

12-02-2004 10:27:47




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I replaced just about everything electronicaly. I rebuilt the carb. points plugs, wire and condensor replaced the volt reg and coil. Replaced the sediment bowl.new battery all gauges am meter, oil pressure, temp, tractomer had generator rebuilt. Also checked the compression they are equal around 80. I was told that the Carter carb may be the problem but I would like some other advise don"t know if I want to dump 225 into a new one if it is not the problem.

I started out getting it cleaned up to paint the tractor the original colors and still want to do it when I can get this thing started regularly.

It will always start from compression start.

I do not want to put it into a 12 volt system as it was my Wife"s Grandfathers.

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Jerry/MT

12-04-2004 19:12:48




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to joel kercher, 12-02-2004 10:27:47  
When you say "it always starts under compression", do you mean that you can pull start it and it always starts? If so, you might want to see if your valves are set too tight.



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JOEL (PA)

12-09-2004 05:47:59




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Jerry/MT, 12-04-2004 19:12:48  
THE FIX WAS THIS MY STARTER WAS BAD!!! Everything else was ok. We adjusted the valves. 2 were of close to 20 instead of the 13 which we gapped. The tractor starts and stops now with out a problem. Shut it of 7 times and started eveytime. Idid a compression check after it was running for a while and all sitting around 80. I did the same test with oil squirting in and they all went up to around 85. The readings seem to hold out. Thanks for all the help. My next project after the winter is to put fresh paint on this guy.

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John MB

12-03-2004 21:44:32




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to joel kercher, 12-02-2004 10:27:47  
Is the cranking speed close to the same hot as when cold? Our TO 35 would start OK cold but if shut off [or stalled] hot it would only turn over very slowly. Turning hot and cold with a crank found it almost impossible to turn by hand when hot. Turned out the oil pump had shredded the pump gears and the bits were embedded in the rod shells [but NOT in the mains]. Never did figure out why. Comments anyone?

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John MB

12-03-2004 21:36:08




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to joel kercher, 12-02-2004 10:27:47  
re: compression readings
I believe the guage reading will be the cylinder pressure less the pressure required to open the check valve in the guage/plug adapter. Usually it is similar to a tire valve. There are special ones that open at a very low pressure. These give a more accurate reading. If a regular/cheap one is used the opening pressure can be much higher, leading to lower guage readings.

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Sodbuster

12-03-2004 16:05:15




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to joel kercher, 12-02-2004 10:27:47  
The two most common things that will cause this is the choke valve and/or linkage are binding causing the choke not to open completely when hot. This can also cause cranking problems when cold. Next check and see if there is fuel in the bowl when hot. (Cut gas off at sediment bowl, then open the drain cock at the carb. See if there is any gas in it. If not, open the gas flow at bowl and see what happens. If no gas, you have a stuck float or restricted gas flow in the fuel path. Also check the air vent hole, make sure it is not plugged up. No air, no gas.
Timing, point setting and coil condition can play a major role as well. I would check this, if you have not done so. Might save a mechanic bill. Good Luck..... ..... .....

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Mr Chapp

12-03-2004 12:42:15




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to joel kercher, 12-02-2004 10:27:47  
Hi Joel... Be sure to get readings for compression with the throttle wide open. 80 psi should not be a problem if the readings are relatively equal. Also gages vary graetly from manufacturer to manufacturer. Compression readings are mostly for comparison purposes. Make sure the coil is connected properly pos to ignition, neg to the distributor. Check to make sure the choke is all the way off with the cable pushed in. Check the ptimary connection at the points. Good luck, have fun!! Mike

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Joel (PA)

12-03-2004 12:52:06




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Mr Chapp, 12-03-2004 12:42:15  
Compression check. I removed plug 1 and screwed in a gauge that I bought at harbor freight screws right in and then pushed the starter button cranked for about 5 times and got the readings. did this with all plugs. Accross the board around 75 to 80.

I then did the same with an oil can an squirted about 10 drops in each plug and did it again. They all were about the same reading givin within 8lbs of PSI. about #'s as above.

I did this while the engine was cold. Does this sound normal?

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Gerald J.

12-04-2004 08:11:28




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Joel (PA), 12-03-2004 12:52:06  
Remove all the plugs to do the compression test. You slow things down and that lowers the compression readings with having to push the other 3 cylinders past compression and having them compete for air through the intake manifold.

Check the advance weights in the distributor to see that they aren't sticking advanced when warm. That makes for hard cranking because that puts the spark before top dead center and so makes for hard starting. They depend on lubrication from the felt under the distributor rotor.

Gerald J.

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Jerry/MT

12-03-2004 18:26:56




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Joel (PA), 12-03-2004 12:52:06  
To do a meaningful compression check, you need to have a engine at or near operating temperature and the throttle needs to be wide open. Your readings are low but that maybe due to the cold engine and the closed throttle. The fact that they are uniform is good but they need to be that way with a warm engine.If the rings are in good shape, and you do the test correctly, the guage should read 110-120 psi with no more than 10 psi difference between cylinders.
If you do the test warm and you still get 80 psi, you need to start thinking about new rings. Do the oil squirt test and see how high the pressures go with the addition of oil. If some cylinders don't come up, you could have a bad valve(s) and/or leaking head gasket.
Regarding your hard starting after running a while, tell me a little about you electrical system. 6V or 12V, recent change,etc? Do you have a 6 volt coil with no reistor with a 12V system? How's the ignition condensor? Is the coil really hot after running?
Is your float level set right or is the carb flooding when the tractor is sitting there?

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Mr Chapp

12-03-2004 14:40:43




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Joel (PA), 12-03-2004 12:52:06  
Joel... The compression readings sound a little low, but if they only came up 8 or so pounds, you don't have a ring problem. Try again with the throttle wide open, they may come up. If I were to check with another gage they might all be 110psi. Yes there can be that much diffewrence in gages. If there were a variation of more than 10-15 psi it would indicate a problem. At this point I'd consider compression normal. I would still look at fuel and spark. When it's hard to start pull a plug,ground it to the engine and spin it over and look at the color of the spark. It should be bluish. Yellow would indicate weak spark. When it does re-start notice the exhaust for black smoke. this would indicate flooding. I'll check for your post tomorrow, Mike

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Jeff-oh

12-03-2004 11:07:50




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to joel kercher, 12-02-2004 10:27:47  
Joel,

what do you mean by hard starting? The motor spins but doesn't fire (fuel problem)
The motor spins slowly and laborourly... (Electrical problem)

The latter is usually caused by a bad electrical connection. The connection heats up with use becomes more resistative and heats up more...

Fix for this is good bright and tight conections. the bad connection can be found by where the wires are hot.

My $.02

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Joel(PA)

12-03-2004 11:16:23




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Jeff-oh, 12-03-2004 11:07:50  
I am almost certain from the responces it is going to be the fuel / carb. All connections are redone double and triple checked. The only thing I did was rebuilt the Carb and wasn't sure what I was doing. I have been messing around with it since. The rebuilt kit didn't come with all the parts I replaced the bowl and the needle valve also the jet and gas screws. didn't seem to change anything. I have some one coming on Tuesday to fix / take a look at it that works at the local tractor dealership. I will follow up with the solution. I hope it will not be too expensive.

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Roger R

12-03-2004 06:57:12




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to joel kercher, 12-02-2004 10:27:47  
Hi Joel;
This is probably a long shot...
The carb is gravity fed and fuel supply should be turned off after shutting down the tractor for any period of time, say, over a few minutes. Otherwise, it'll flood and will be hard to start until the fuel clears.
Good luck!
RogeR



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Gregg/Ohio

12-02-2004 21:00:02




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to joel kercher, 12-02-2004 10:27:47  
As a TO-35 owner also (12 volt), Your Clyinder reading of 80 pounds seems a tad low. (Mine checked at 120-125#)it could be the difference beteewn 6 and 12 volt starter speeds? Also retarded Ing. timing can cause hard hot starting,have you checked it?(It belongs @ 6 degrees BTDC)The timing mark is on the flywheel.Also leaky carb needle seat will allow engine to flood with fuel upon shutdown,this will cause hard hot restarting.

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Jerry/MT

12-03-2004 18:33:16




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Gregg/Ohio, 12-02-2004 21:00:02  
I'm not lookin' to start an argument but starter speed only affects how fast you get the pressure, not the level of the pressure.



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Mr Chapp

12-04-2004 04:59:54




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Jerry/MT, 12-03-2004 18:33:16  
No argument here!!! I agree 100%



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Joel(PA)

12-09-2004 05:53:59




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Mr Chapp, 12-04-2004 04:59:54  
I do have blow by but not to bad. I get the compression reading after 3 cranks from the engine. 4 and 5 don't really seam to matter. I did this check after the engine was warm and they held out at 80. with wet test went up to 85 all plugs. I am hoping that for the amount of use I do 40 hours a year that this will run for years before an engine overhaul. I run the unit hot and flush the oil 2 to 3 time a year. Depending on the use. Get it good and hot and then drain for a few hours. befor filling to help clean it out.

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Joel (PA)

12-03-2004 07:24:47




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Gregg/Ohio, 12-02-2004 21:00:02  
When done I let the tractor run and turn off the gas at the bowl and choke out the tractor as to not have the gas in the carb.



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Joel Kercher

12-03-2004 05:14:01




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Gregg/Ohio, 12-02-2004 21:00:02  
I am sorry but I do not know what you mean about 6 degrees BTDC. Is this to difficult to give me detail how to check?



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Joel Kercher

12-03-2004 05:09:23




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Gregg/Ohio, 12-02-2004 21:00:02  
I have a guy coming to check the timing on Tuesday for me. He also said that the compression readings seem low. I have been tinkering around with this for a year and not really sure what I am doing. I came to the conclusion that I would feel better having the local dealer come and check it out. I will give you a follow up after that. I hope it is nothing major.



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Justin-PA

12-03-2004 07:13:41




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Joel Kercher, 12-03-2004 05:09:23  
Joel,
First off, your compression is pretty low. 6V starter is probably not the problem. Mine is still 6V and I get 135 - 140 psi.

Timing is easy to check. Pull all of the spark plugs, then rotate the engine so #1 cylinder is on top dead center. There is a small plug on the front of the bell (clutch) housing. Should be directly underneath the sediment bowel, about the same level as the top of the oil pan. Pop out the plug, you should see some marks on the flywheel inside. If not rotate the engine by hand (I use the fan blade) until you see the marks. Line up 6 on the scale with the arrow on the housing. Now pull the distributor cap and dust cap and look at the points. They should just be opening. If not, loosen the distributor shaft clamp and rotate until the points just barely open. (A trick I use is to turn the key on, so that right when the points open you will get a little spark.) Of course I am assuming you set the points gap correctly before doing this. This procedure will get you pretty darn close. A timing light will get you dead-on, but I have never needed one to get my TO35 timed right.

Good luck!

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Joel Kercher (PA)

12-03-2004 07:22:06




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Justin-PA, 12-03-2004 07:13:41  
If the compression is low could this be causing my problem? If so what would need to be done next? Am I looking at an engine overhaul?



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Justin-PA

12-03-2004 09:56:27




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 Re: Hard Starting T035 after running a while in reply to Joel Kercher (PA), 12-03-2004 07:22:06  
Seems to me if it starts when cold, but not after its been running its either a fuel or electrical problem. When you rebuilt the carb, did you clean it out with carb cleaner? I have the Carter Carb, recently rebuilt, and have no problems.

You should try checking the compression both cold and hot, see if it changes at all. If it is still the same, you have to find out if the piston rings are worn, or if the valves are worn. Try dumping a tablespoon of oil thru the spark plug hole, then immediately check compression again. If it goes up, your rings are worn. If not, then you probably need a valve job or head rebuild.

Another question, when you check compression, how many turns of the engine does it take to get to 80psi? Usually will take between 5-6 compression cycles for me.

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