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Harry Ferguson Tractors Discussion Forum
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Gas engine overhaul...............................

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RonW

02-16-2008 18:12:36




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Hey guys. I haven"t posted for quite a while, but now have another question for you. My TO-35 (Z 134) motor has gotten so bad now that I have to look at a rebuild of some degree. Oil is the problem. All the overhaul kits I see include new sleeves. Are sleeves always a "must do" in an overhaul? I have patched, rebuilt, built many automotive engines so I know the pitfalls of a patch job. The old tractor sees very light duty, runs good and has oil pressure that I can live with. Is there such a thing as just throwing in a set of rings and rod bearings and drive away? Thanks, RonW

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Jerry/MT

02-18-2008 20:08:31




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 Re: Gas engine overhaul............................... in reply to RonW, 02-16-2008 18:12:36  
I gather your engine is "burning oil". You say, "Oil is the problem."

If it"s blue spoke at high power operation (under load), then rings are most likely the problem and a compression check will confirm this.

If the smoke is heavy at idle and under low loads but pretty much gone under high load, the problem is the valves seals/valve guides.(Low power operation occurs with high vacuum in the intake manifold which sucks oil past the bad seals and worn guides.)

What happens in your case?

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gshadel

02-18-2008 19:10:28




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 Re: Gas engine overhaul............................... in reply to RonW, 02-16-2008 18:12:36  
Ron, replacing sleeves are often not essential, that's basically what a rebuild kit is... sleeves, matching pistons, rings, etc. which is why you always see them sold with rebuild kits.
You can buy just rings from several AG parts dealers, and clean/lap the head & valves yourself. You can buy just the head gasket, pan gasket, etc. to do as little, or as much as you like.

My TO used to belch smoke like a full time bug sprayer. When I pulled it apart to do a ring job, I found the rings had been broken for some time and wallered out the ring grooves in pistons something terrible. My sleeve ID's were still within spec's though. My "ring job" turned into a new sleeve/piston job.... good used pistons are tough to find. You can also buy just one sleeve/piston if you have one really bad piston but the others look okay.

The sleeve seals are rubber O-rings that go around the base of the sleeve and seal the sleeve to the bottom bore in the block. The sleeves are wet sleeves and are held in place by the head. Once the head is off... in theory... the sleeves can just be pushed up out of the block. But in practice they get stuck in there with rust & crud, you would think they were pressed-in with a 50 ton press.

Before buying a set of rings and a head gasket, I recommend pulling the head and pistons to see what your dealing with, to make sure that will take care of your problem.

George

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Mark from the fort

02-17-2008 09:11:29




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 Re: Gas engine overhaul............................... in reply to RonW, 02-16-2008 18:12:36  
I know where your coming from.
On my "worker 35" I did just that. My valve guides were bad-had head redone and just rehoned cylinders and put in new rings. (main and rod bearings where fine).
She runs fine, but still has tiny puffs of smoke.
In retrospec, while I had her that far down, I wish I would have went with new sleeves and matching rings.
Then I wouldn't be second guessing myself everyime she puffs a little at me.
Mark

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Jim in OH

02-16-2008 20:09:08




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 Re: Gas engine overhaul............................... in reply to RonW, 02-16-2008 18:12:36  
YOu said "Oil is the problem".. I take that to be burning oil? You might add what exactly you mean.. Are you getting blowby? Is it smoking? Is ti smoking only throttled or under full load?.. You can probably see where I am going.. Oil burning could be rings or valve guides.. and like was said, you really won"t know until you take it apart.. but to answer your question, yes you can just throw rings and bearings in it, but it may not solve your problem... even if you are only re-ringing it, I"d pull the sleeves to put in new O-rings....

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RonW

02-16-2008 21:37:51




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 Yes burning oil............ in reply to Jim in OH, 02-16-2008 20:09:08  
Yes, burning oil. Didn't mean to make it sound like a leak. It smokes so badly that when backing up, you can hardly breathe through the smoke. Very hard for anyone to work behind it to hook chains or such. The topside is not flooding the guides. I have run it with the valve cover off and watched. Engine speed does not have a lot to do with it. It is a bit worse under load but still is terrible at idle. Compression is ok for me, for a worn out tractor. All 4 are at or near 100 pounds. However, since this problem has worsened, # 1 cyl only goes to about 40 on the first stroke,then up to about 90-95 by the third stroke. All four spark plugs are wet with oil after running. The engine never smoked or used any oil until about a year ago after I loaned it out. I found out that it had run probably 3-4 hrs. without the air cleaner connected. However, it was not a very dusty environment. Anyway, it came home smoking pretty badly and has continued to worsen. I think I would blame all the problem on # 1, except for all the plugs being wet with oil. Still open to any and all thoughts. BTW-- where are the sleeve seals located? I have never been into one these engines, except for the front cover for cam and governor. Thanks, RonW

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Hal Hadaller

02-18-2008 19:25:42




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 Re: Yes burning oil............ in reply to RonW, 02-16-2008 21:37:51  
Is there any way that you can look down into the bore? If the engine ever got hot, oil could bake on to the cylinder walls and shine them up. Something like this could cause your problem. A leak-down check would be best if you have the tester. About anything will pass a compression test after a few strokes. With a leak-down check, you can easily determing if it is the exhaust valve, intake valve or the rings. Listen to the intake at the carb, or listen to the exhaust pipe opening, or listen to the oil fill hole. Where you hear air is the problem. The leak-down tester is pumped up to 80 psi (normally), the cylinder is set to TDC and held there (wrench on you engine pulley nut). When air is let into the cylinder, some will always leak and if the pressure falls too low, it is a sign the something is going bad. A good reading would nominally be close to 80 psi (perfect engine) but anything above about 60 is OK. I think that yours won't hold anywhere close to that. Harbor Freight sells one of these for around $39 on sale.

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Don Hooks*

02-16-2008 18:51:15




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 Re: Gas engine overhaul............................... in reply to RonW, 02-16-2008 18:12:36  
The shop manual has acceptable tolerances for keeping old parts, so as long as the surfaces are not scarred and the measurements are within tolerances you should be OK. If the issue is oil pressure then main and rod bearing replacement and tuning up or rebuilding the pump should get the pressure back up. You will be able to tell in a hurry about the cylinders when you pull the head - if the liners are worn more than, I think, about ten thousandths in any diameter then it is prudent to replace them. My book is pretty specific about NOT boring the sleeves.

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