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8N parts fraud

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Rob

07-10-2003 14:36:26

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Look out for this one!
Listed an 8N dozer blade and Everett tranny on internet classified. 12 hours later a guy in Africa wanted the blade and said name your price I'll send a check. I emailed back a rather large number and said forget a check; letter of credit or money order only. Got a money order for a REALLY large amount and he said send the balance to the freight forwarding outfit and they will come get the blade.
Presented m.o. to the bank and warned them it smelled fishy; internet, africa, send money to 3rd party, like that. Three days later bank says m.o. is good. I says "you sure?" Bank says "yep." So I went got the money, all of it, and sent some on. Put my share in my safe. 7 days later bank "says m.o. no good your overdrawn." I says nope, I warned you and I be right down. FBI beat me to the bank, they called two days ago on that m.o. and they will come in tomorrow. The bank says I'm off the hook and they will eat the m.o.
I like the money but I'm peod those crooks got theirs. I'm poed at the bank because they let it happen. I still feel like a sucker somehow. I hate being part of those cruds getting $$$ even though I was covered. Hope the FBI gets those guys. Most of the money is in Nigeria and I know because I sent it there Western Union. Mine's in my safe.
Meantime guy says forget the blade send the rest of the money. I says "nope, used equip sales are final and it's your blade now." I add "I'll buy it back but I won't pay much." He says "...dang...ok." Still got the blade. Don't think I'll pay for it.
So the blade will be back on the market here again shortly. I'm going to do ok! Bunch of dummies at the bank.
P.S. Just this morning I got another email on that same add, I never took it down because it had the tranny on it too, offering a check for the same amount from some gal in the same African city. Same deal with the forwarding outfit. No haggling on price no nothing just "I'll send you a check and you send some to this other guy." Same song different verse.
Think I should answer? Bet my bank won't take the check...or a money order! sheesh.

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bob g ny

07-17-2003 10:55:35

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

id keep the money. the banks can afford it. there the same people that give you 3% interest on your money and turn around and charge 21% to borrow it. i think they can afford the hit. in my eyes the banks are more thieves then the nigerians.

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Luke

07-11-2003 21:05:31

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

Rob, I am in total agreement with you. I don't see how you did anything wrong. I am surprised to see that people think you are in the wrong. Maybe I just don't get it, but from what I understand, you didn't do anything wrong.

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Willy-N

07-11-2003 20:51:15

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

You got your blade still and have lost nothing. The money was got thru fraud you should return it. You know it was fraud by you keeping it you are just as bad as the guy who tried to fraud you. The bank did there best to clear the MO but it took a couple more days. By reading this post some how I think you knew what was going on and hoped to get over. Give the money back it is not yours no way, do the right thing. That is what a honest man would do. Mark H.

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Rob

07-12-2003 07:07:01

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Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Willy-N, 07-11-2003 20:51:15

I know what you are saying but it isn't so simple.
When the bank said the m.o. was good I went through that blade thinking it was destined to be used overseas. I replaced all the worn hardware and rebuilt the rams because they might not have easy access to those parts over there.
I sweated over it in the sun breaking it down, cleaning it up, welding this small crack and that, straightening that, replaced worns pins, went out and found a skid, packed it up for shipment. All of that in a couple-three days because it was scheduled for pick-up on Tuesday. That was a LOT of work and it cost me more then a couple of bucks and a few busted knuckles. However, I anticipated doing that when I first quoted the price and that is why I asked more for an export. I want to send them something they could work hard for a long to make a living without having to replace stuff in only a few months. I didn't figure they would be gentlement farmers with the luxery of a farm/ranch store just a couple miles in town.
Now I got more in it and have to find someone that will pay more unless I get to retain that extra expense from the sales price.
To get my money out of the blade now I'll probably have to sand it down and paint it, get it dolled up. Spend MORE time and money to get my price. I was more likely to sell it if it as is (was) and the buyer decides to replace hardware and pins and rebuild rams etc.
I've sat on it for a month over this deal. I'm out too. You just worry about the bank. I'm out! Screw me. Bank blew it, not me. I told em they needed to be careful because of all this talk about scams on this kind. If the money order bounces then I won't ship. No big deal and I'll absorb my sales costs, that business. The bank didn't treat it seriously enough to protect me or they were just flat incompetent, dunno what their problem is but they sure got one.
And you tell me I'm not 'honest' if I don't overlook the shiftless bank and absorb all the cost.
What about next time someone gives me a hot check? Should I look over the banks shoulder to see they do their job right? How would I know? How do I know a check is bad? I gotta take the banks word for it, all I can do is warn them of any concerns I have.
Now you guys think I should make that poor incompetent bank whole at my expense.
Forget it, it isn't going to happen.

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You must be a layer.

07-11-2003 17:41:06

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

If not you better get one.

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HEY ROB, IF THE CAR HOP..

07-11-2003 15:18:49

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

If the car hop at your local drive in gave you to much change would you let the kid know about the mistake, or just let him pay the difference out of his tip money? Sounds like you'd drive off as fast as you could.

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I'm sorry...but I don't b

07-11-2003 14:25:18

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

I think you made this whole thing up in your head.

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DallasGa

07-11-2003 09:35:59

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

Rob,Whether you knew it was a scam before hand or not is irrelevant,you know now,so how do you figure it's "your money"? It the banks money,but you think you deserve to keep it because they made a mistake or because you warned them? I guess if the teller gave you to much cash back you'd keep that to because they screwed up? Doesn't sound like the right thing to do,but you gotta live with it, not me.

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Rob

07-11-2003 10:05:41

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Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to DallasGa, 07-11-2003 09:35:59

Yep. That's a good point and a whole new discussion. Now that V.P. didn't ask for the money but ever since I've been thinking about just what you said.
On the other hand maybe the bank is entitled to the blade. I sold the blade and the sale is final. The money is mine but the blade isn't.
What do you think about that?
I should call the bank and tell em to come get their blade out of here. Maybe they will sell it back at a good price. What do you think about that?
I could offer to sell it for them. Dunno. You're right, I'm not entitled to both the money and the blade. I never figured I was.

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Steve(OR)

07-11-2003 10:26:18

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Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-11-2003 10:05:41

There never was an agreement to sell, only a scam to rip off you and/or the bank. So you can't claim a sales a sale and all sales are final.

The bank never wanted the blade. They were only performing a service for YOU!

You have the blade and the money. The bank, its investors, depositors and tax payers are the ones hurt by this by lost funds, higher interest and insurance rates.

SEND THE MONEY BACK TO THE BANK!

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Rob

07-11-2003 11:24:46

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Steve(OR), 07-11-2003 10:26:18

Nope, the bank made the mistake. I gave em the money order and told them it was fishy and told them I needed them to do their job. They said they could and would do their job and I relied on that. I gave them notice and if they couldn't do it or didn't know how to do it they should have said so and that would have been that. I wouldn't have shipped and neither I nor the bank would have been out a dime.
The key words and legal terms are reliance and notice. They claim to be a bank and competent and able to perform certain services for it's customers. I am one and I asked them to perform and they argeed to do just that. I didn't slip this by them in a pile of other checks; I showed it to them, told them why I was concerned and told them I would have to rely on their doing their job correctly or I would end up shipping the equipment with no hope of getting it back. They said no problem. They had notice.
If a bank promises to perform and then fails they, like anyone else, are liable. You don't enter into an agreement, blow it, and then put the cost off on the person you made the agreement with. Not if you have any integrity and not under the law of contract.
It's amazing to here people say a bank shouldn't be held responsible for a failure to do the job it is being paid to do. Why is a bank different from anyone else or do you feel that no one should be expected to do their job or live up to an agreement?

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Steve(OR)

07-11-2003 11:40:31

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-11-2003 11:24:46

Your talking about legal responsibility. I'm talking about moral and ethical integrity. The law and morality don't always coincide. I still say you should send the money back. Anyone that knows the details of this incident would be very hesitant to do business with you in the future.

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Rob

07-11-2003 11:59:09

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Steve(OR), 07-11-2003 11:40:31

No ethical or moral integrity if you ask a bank to do their job and see if a money order is any good. Interesting take.
Me? I know there are bad guys in Africa but that doesn't mean everyone is. Same as America.

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SEND THE MONEY BACK.

07-11-2003 12:08:28

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-11-2003 11:59:09

The bottom line is this:

There was a scam. The bank lost. YOU benefited!

Not respectfully - until you SEND THE MONEY BACK,
Steve(OR)

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Rob

07-11-2003 13:43:59

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to SEND THE MONEY BACK., 07-11-2003 12:08:28

Thankfully the banks around here are willing to accept responsibility for their work. They do get paid for it after all. I know you're worried about the shareholders and all.
The pres and I are discussing the blade and the money.
I called him and told him to come get his blade and he laughed. I got a guy asking about the blade. We'll see how it plays out.

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I'd keep it all!

07-11-2003 14:00:30

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-11-2003 13:43:59

Way I see it, the bank took responsibility when they assured the gentleman that they would be diligent. They approved the note, therefore, they are liable for the impact...
Just my $0.02...
Woody

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MikeC

07-11-2003 10:56:57

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Steve(OR), 07-11-2003 10:26:18

Yup. What Steve said.

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steve19438

07-11-2003 06:05:31

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

i had the same thing happen to me after i listed a 8N part for sale. my question is why would anyone EVEN answer the email???? it's an obvious scam. maybe the thought of making a HUGE quick buck clouded your judgment.

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Rob

07-11-2003 07:39:12

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Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to steve19438, 07-11-2003 06:05:31

Why is it obvious? You say anything international is an obvious scam? I've been involved in four or five international sales or purchases over the years. Completely legit.
Are you saying ignore anything from Africa? I don't know about that and I didn't know anything about it being Africa until later.
Are you saying ignore anyone that doesn't haggle?
What makes it an obvious scam?

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steve19438

07-11-2003 11:25:46

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Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-11-2003 07:39:12

WHY would anyone from africa want a 8N dozer blade and an E. tranny????? shipping? out of this world! somewhere your common sense has to kick in!!!!

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Rob

07-11-2003 11:31:18

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to steve19438, 07-11-2003 11:25:46

Uh...they want it for the same reasons an American would want it I suppose.
My common sense was kicked in. I wasn't shipping a dang thing until that money order cleared. I explained that to the bank.
They knew I had suspicions, why I had suspicions, and they cleared the money order. I asked them to do their job, I told them why it was important to me, they promised me they would, and they blew it.

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Jerry L /az

07-10-2003 22:58:11

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

Ron; where are you located? e-mail me would like to talk with you my address is correct..... Jer

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tim[in]

07-10-2003 22:26:55

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

there are so many con artists out there that i doubt the fbi could even make a small dent in them!!since the internet came about , con artist have flocked to it like crows to a corn field!i know because i think i got had a few times myself. i think if you mention internet the fbi will probably roll there eyes and tell you they'll do the best they can!!personally i think a tree grinder would be handy if these con artists are caught!=)

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souNdguy

07-10-2003 21:56:53

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

On another sub I read over at tractor by net . com
there are lots of articles on this.... nigeria seems the worst area for this.

Soundguy

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BC Mike C

07-10-2003 19:09:41

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

As part of my day job in the investment business I had to take classes on fraud, money laundering and procceeds of crime. We have gone a bit overboard with due diligence on this stuff since 9/11. But the scammers are out there. Take care, BC Mike C

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Rob

07-10-2003 20:11:14

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Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to BC Mike C, 07-10-2003 19:09:41

After the bank paid the m.o. I contacted the Kansas Bureau of Investigation because I was still concerned it was a money-laundering deal.
They didn't think so because a m.o. was too easy to trace.
I suspect these guys are working this site. The ad was on this site's classified. Now this other email.

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rbell

07-11-2003 05:46:21

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Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 20:11:14

Tell the folks at KBI to read the FBI bulletins they get.
This scam has been all over the major law enforcement advisory boards / news for months.
Heck I think I remember seeing it in the IACP magazine.

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Rob

07-11-2003 07:44:19

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to rbell, 07-11-2003 05:46:21

Oh I think everyone knows there are scams on the internet. The KBI and FBI were all over this one.
The thing about this one is that it seems these people are looking at this board's classified ads. Or maybe it's the 8N tractor. Something about this ad on this site and perhaps one of the other N-sites is getting a lot of attention.
I'm still curious, even if there are scams there are also legit people. How do you decide to answer one inquiry and dismiss another an obvious scam? I mean I go in to any deal with both eyes open. People been writing bad checks and passing stolen money orders for a long time before there was an internet.

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MikeC

07-10-2003 18:38:21

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

Surely you did not get hooked by one of the oldest, most advertised Internet scams? Heck, it has even been discussed here several times. It's hard to believe that anyone would still get hooked by it with all of the press that it has received.

My Site

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Rob

07-10-2003 20:32:29

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Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to MikeC, 07-10-2003 18:38:21

Hooked huh? I made a lot of money. I still have the blade. Hooked? Not exactly.
I'm curious Mike, what would you have done so not to be 'hooked'? Not answered the 1st email with a price quote? Just taken a pass because it might not be legit?
If you had quoted and then received the money order would you have torn it up because it might not be good or would you have presented it to the bank to see if it was any good? Would you have done that or would you have just tore it up because you heard someone got hooked?
If you had deposited the m.o. and the bank had cleared it and the money was in your account then would you execute your part of the agreed upon deal? You can't just send the money back! What would you have done differently Mike?

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MikeC

07-11-2003 09:22:39

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Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 20:32:29

I guess it all comes down to a matter of integrity. Like I say, that is an old, well known scam and I would not have participated in it.

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Rob

07-11-2003 10:18:24

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to MikeC, 07-11-2003 09:22:39

So you just deal with people you know then?
I mean an email response to an internet for sale ad isn't automatically a scam.
You didn't say, when would you have broke it off? You just wouldn't answer any email from a foreign sounding name?
Tell me, I want to know.

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MikeC

07-11-2003 10:54:48

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-11-2003 10:18:24

A direct quote from your original post:

"12 hours later a guy in Africa wanted the blade and said name your price I'll send a check"

As soon as I saw that is was:

1. From Africa.
2. Name your price.

I would have broken it off. Both of those are key phrases for the scam. Again, that is an scam that has been around for a long time. Personal integrity.

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Rob

07-11-2003 11:27:24

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to MikeC, 07-11-2003 10:54:48

Does your 'personal integrity' allow you deal with someone from Africa that haggles over the price?

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MikeC

07-11-2003 14:21:47

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-11-2003 11:27:24

"Does your 'personal integrity' allow you deal with someone from Africa that haggles over the price"

No, but my personal integrity does stop me from participating in what I know is a scam. Clearly you knew it from the start and instead of doing the right thing you are trying to weasle around and keep both the cash and the blade.

That is of course if this is real and not just a childish ploy for attention on your part.

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Rob

07-11-2003 15:08:26

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to MikeC, 07-11-2003 14:21:47

Nope, I didn't know it was a scam. Knew it might be.
And no, I'm not trying to keep both the cash and the blade. Never said I was, in fact I said just the opposite a couple of times.
So you are 'clearly' wrong on both those counts.
Question was does your 'personal integrity' allow you to deal with someone in Africa if they haggle and your answer was 'No.' So your 'personal integrity' prevents you from dealing with anyone in Africa because there are some crooks in Africa.
I can understand that as a personal thing but it's a stretch to say it has anything to do with 'integrity.' Myself? Well I'm not going to agree that no one in America should ever deal with an African because there are criminals over there. You apply that rule universally then you can't sell anything in any nation.
I think the warnings on the African internet scams are a good thing that to know whenever such a deal arises. But it shouldn't be seen to forbid any dealings with anyone in Africa. And it has nothing to do with 'personal integrity' whatsoever.

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rbell

07-11-2003 05:50:15

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Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 20:32:29

You knew the request was from Africa.
You ship tractor parts to Africa all the time right?
Wise up. I suppose if someone wanted to sell you a diamond ring for $10 bucks and let you get it appraised and verify it was worth a million, you would not think crooked deal?
Don't say you did not help proliferate this rip off.

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Rob

07-11-2003 07:53:36

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Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to rbell, 07-11-2003 05:50:15

No, I didn't know Africa until I received the money order. I've never dealt with shipments to Africa but I've done much bigger deals then this from Japan and the Middle East. I've traveled to the middle east on business. Stayed there a year. Doing business overseas is no big deal. It's never like buying and selling to a guy in the next state though.
You say I helped this deal? Bank doesn't see it that way. Neither does the FBI or the KBI. Fact is all I did was quote a price and then give the bank the money order. I even told the bank I think it might be bogus and reminded them of all the internet scams.
You tell me. Would you have ignored the offer to buy because it wasn't from an American? Would you just have tossed the money order because it was drawn on a foreign bank; it was payable in US dollars? What would you do?

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MikeC

07-11-2003 15:59:38

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-11-2003 07:53:36

You're mixing up your stories. In your original post you stated "12 hours later a guy in Africa wanted the blade and said name your price I'll send a check"

In this post you said "No, I didn't know Africa until I received the money order"

Which is it???

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ATW/WA

07-10-2003 15:01:32

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Re: 8N parts fraud in reply to Rob, 07-10-2003 14:36:26

Rob,

The Goose that laid the golden egg??? Or don't look a gift horse in the mouth!

Work with the FBI, and other authorities to catch these thieves.

My thoughts. ATW/WA

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