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Battery on concrete floor

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Rob N VA

01-02-2004 18:39:45




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A buddy of mine saw my spare 6 volt battery on my concrete garage floor and about had a fit. He told me that leaving a wet cell battery on a concrete floor would ruin it. I asked him how the concrete affected the battery so negatively, and he could not give me a straight answer. So, I figured I'd go to the "panel of experts" Does my buddy's theory hold water? I just don't see what could concrete could do to ruin a battery. Please help! Any theories would be appreciated!---Rob

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max

01-03-2004 15:45:13




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
Rob
Might not be true, but I have 6 batteries sitten on concrete, there all dead. But they will all take a charge, so I'll keep em around for a while.
If its your battery, store it where ya want, and see what happens. Then form your own opinion.



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Mark in AB

01-03-2004 14:29:02




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
30 years ago this was true. Batteries were made with breathable porous case material and would discharge on a concrete or metal pad. new batteries are made with new technology case material that does not do this. NOW its just an old wives tale.



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Deon

01-03-2004 18:11:46




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 Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Mark in AB, 01-03-2004 14:29:02  
I guess I'm going to ask you, prove that the material the battery cases are made of now, are any better or less porous than the battery cases that were made of 20 years ago??? Or is it just cheaper for manufactures to use plastic?? Or do you really know what your talkin about???



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no wood

01-03-2004 13:19:50




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
Rob, Intrestate Battery says it won`t hurt a thing to store on concrete.



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Bob

01-03-2004 13:53:25




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 Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to no wood, 01-03-2004 13:19:50  
Of course, they like to sell batteries.



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Dan MO

01-03-2004 14:22:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Bob, 01-03-2004 13:53:25  
You people need to listen to what Dell, said,
the reason batteries don't discharge when there in a tractor or car, is the fact that your continually recharging them, and I guarantee that if you let a battery get dirty enough in your vehicle that it will discharge. Also when the battery is sitting on the concrete, it doesn't discharge immediately, and were not talking about two or three days, but you leave it there long enough it will discharge.

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Dell (WA)

01-02-2004 23:33:28




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
Rob..... ...I know the answer to this one. And YES, it is TRUE.

Heres the deal, in the "charging process", the very act of charging, creates acid vapor that outgasses thru the battery tops and deposits/condenses itself on the outside of the battery. You don't see it because it dries itself, but the crystals are there. When a battery is placed on bare concrete, the concrete (unless painted or has a underground VAPORSEAL) actually transpires normal ground WATER VAPOR that condenses on the battery case (like dew), hydrating the acid crystals which then turn into CONDUCTOR between the battery TERMINALS..... ..thus DISCHARGING the wetcell battery. Not ruining it, just discharging it. Setting your battery on piece of wood acts as a water vapor stop.

The "cure" for all this fall-der-all, is to wash your battery in dilute water/baking soda wash. This "neutralizes the acid crystals" and prevents the "invisable" but invitable discharge of a battery sitting on concrete.

Oh yeah, if'n you don't think your battery outgasses acid vapor, why do you think your metal battery tray corrodes? Or your battery terminals corrode? Glass and plastic and rubber are acid resistant. Thats why used to place copper penny or zink slug on top of battery to act as an acid sacrifice. Now you can get and use those felt washers to prevent terminal corrosion..... ..respectfully, Dell the Chemist

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Jon H

01-03-2004 16:23:14




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 Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Dell (WA), 01-02-2004 23:33:28  
I agree,but with a slightly different version of this story. Any battery that has been used has a slight acid film on the battery top from charging fumes. when this film is dry it does not conduct when it is damp it does conduct.
A battery stored on a cold concrete floor will lose heat to the concrete and be cooler than room/air temperature. This encourages sweating of the battery which wets this conductive layer and causes a battery drain. The same battery stored on an insulating material( wood or whatever) will be much closer to room/air temperature and not as prone to sweating,so the top stays dryer and has less self discharge across the battery top and terminals. I can't prove it, but it sounds reasonable.

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George Willer

01-03-2004 07:47:48




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 Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Dell (WA), 01-02-2004 23:33:28  
Respectfully... POPPYCOCK!!! It's amazing the things people believe that simply aren't so. The only possible harm is to the concrete.

George Willer



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raytasch--Just like in th

01-03-2004 07:31:57




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 Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Dell (WA), 01-02-2004 23:33:28  
So, Dell, the floor environment sounds much like the battery tray environment in many tractors. You know, surrounded by chemical dust from fertilizer, sprays, animal dust, and other farm polutants. These with a nightly dew and or high humidity will create the ideal environment to slowly discharge the battery. So, we can conclude that the battery installed in the battery tray of a tractor is causing the battery to discharge. Shucks, the battery as installed even has the old wiring that can cause additional drain to ground.
===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== "When a battery is placed on bare concrete, the concrete (unless painted or has a underground VAPORSEAL) actually transpires normal ground WATER VAPOR that condenses on the battery case (like dew), hydrating the acid crystals which then turn into CONDUCTOR between the battery TERMINALS..... ..thus DISCHARGING the wetcell battery. Not ruining it, just discharging it."

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correct . . . Dell (WA)

01-03-2004 08:53:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to raytasch--Just like in th, 01-03-2004 07:31:57  
Ray..... ...you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. All those things discharge the battery..... LONG TERM..... Daily useage, you never notice it. This is why you ALWAYS haffta recharge the tractor battery in the spring after setting all winter long. Most people place a battery on the ground/concrete for STORAGE, not daily use. ..... ...Dell



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Bill Craig

01-03-2004 14:11:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to correct . . . Dell (WA), 01-03-2004 08:53:26  
Dell,
Isn't this why we always checked the millivolt drain from Pos. to airframe ground with the cables disconnected on our battery inspections, both Lead Acid and NiCad? Sometimes was a cracked case, but usually was an overcharged or overserviced battery, therefore "wet" between the battery/box. I've seen a 40 AH discharge overnight! Respectfully,
Bill C.



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Rob N VA

01-03-2004 04:52:15




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 Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Dell (WA), 01-02-2004 23:33:28  
Thank you for yor response Dell. I see what you are saying, but does this hold true for the new plastic case batteries? I knew that batteries out gassed, but my Dad (electrical engineer, and alcoholic...bad mix) always told me that batteries outgassed Argon gas. Is this the same as acid vapor, or accompanied with? Or was Dad just drinking that day? Thanks again, Rob



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Dell (WA)

01-03-2004 06:58:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-03-2004 04:52:15  
Rob..... ...its NOT the case material, its the venting scheme. There are some modern plastic batterys that are "sealed", yet somehow the water evaporates, never figgered that'un out. Then there are these "gell-cells" like Optimia.

Modern solid-state voltage regulators greatly reduce "over-charging" which is the principle cause of excessive battery vapor out-gassing. Crude voltage regulation like the 9N/2N 3rd brush scheme invariably leads to overcharging.

Don't know about that Argon gass. I think its a product of specific electro-chemical distillation process. Most of your battery vapor out-gass is sulfuric acid and hydrogen gass..... ....Dell who studied chemistry 40 yrs ago and now has CRS

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Rob N VA

01-03-2004 07:25:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Dell (WA), 01-03-2004 06:58:34  
Thanks Dell! Maybe that is what Dad was telling me, is that batteries vented Hydrogen. I don't really remember the specifics of the conversation, I just remember that I was smoking a cigarette while working on a battery, and Dad started telling me how stupid I was being, because batteries vented explosive gases. For some reason I thought he told me it was Argon gas, but Hydrogen seems a lot more fesible. Unfortunatly, Dad died three years ago, so I can't ask him to refresh my memory. Boy, he sure hated me smoking. I'm glad now that I quit, for a lot of reasons. Anyway, I am getting off track, thanks for clearing that up for me Dell! --Rob

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kyhayman

01-03-2004 14:19:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-03-2004 07:25:49  
I wont pretend to get into the argument on 'if the floor discharges the battery or not'. I will confirm that the gas is hydrogen rather than argon (which is an inert or noble gas and wont burn). It's been too long since I studied chemistry to balance the equation completely but H2(SO)4, sulfuric acid reacts with lead in the plates to form lead sulfate Pb(SO)4 with hydrogen gas, H2, as a byproduct.

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Fast Ed Ohio

01-02-2004 21:33:49




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
Back in the 50s I was told leaving a battery set on a cement floor was a big no no , always set it on wood, batterys have changed a lot over the years, I still set mine on a piece of wood, force of habit I guess .



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jimmac (WA)

01-03-2004 06:22:47




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 Re: Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Fast Ed Ohio, 01-02-2004 21:33:49  
Ed, Im from the same era & do the same thing. Sometimes old habits are hard to break. Besides that I dont want to tell my thirty something Son that Ive been wrong all these years about setting batteries on concrete. Jim



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souNdguy

01-02-2004 20:58:29




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
Considering your plastic cased battery sits in a metal battery box in your tractor.. and metal is a great conductor as opposed to concrete... I also vote no problems on concrete..

Soundguy



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RusselAZ

01-02-2004 20:28:56




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
It hasn't discharged a battery since they quit making the cases out of wood. (yes, they did). and I doubt it did then. This is an urban legend that just won't die. I would imagine that it got it's start because someone put a bad battery on the floor and it went dead and they had to blame it on to something to explain to their wife why they suddenly needed a new battery. And, their wife went to the beauty parlor, and ,,,well, you know, the rest is history.

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Kurt : Ky

01-02-2004 20:13:44




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
concrete will not discharge or hurt your batteries.



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tinman

01-02-2004 20:09:57




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
Placing a battery on concrete does it no harm. Before the poly plastic cases the concrete would draw the moisture from the battery.



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indy

01-02-2004 19:10:22




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
One of my former students sold Interstate Batteries and I asked him about the concrete deal....he said that may have been true for older batteries but it is not the case for the new ones...the plastic casing is different I think he said..... indy



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Rlach

01-02-2004 19:06:02




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
"I just don't see what could concrete could do to ruin a battery" : I agree with you and it is based on years of experience with batteries (since late 1939, the year my dad purchased the 9N 1940). BTW, one doesn't ground a battery by leaving it on the "ground".
Regards, Rlach



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Bob

01-02-2004 19:02:07




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
Over the years I've seen a lot more concrete floors damaged by leaky batteries (etched) than I've seen batteries damaged by a concrete floor!

I think it's more of an old wive's tail than anything.

Batteries spend their working lives sitting on a metal tray with dirt of various kinds next to them and under them, and what is special about concrete that would hurt a battery any more than sitting on dirty metal?

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raytasch

01-02-2004 18:48:22




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 Re: Battery on concrete floor in reply to Rob N VA, 01-02-2004 18:39:45  
Only if the battery case rubber. The rubber as used in cases of old could conduct current on a wet floor and discharge the battery. Seriously doubt if any manufacturer is using rubber in battery cases today.
ray



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