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9N Still Sputtering

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Rob in VA

01-13-2004 12:34:09




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I appreciate all the advise I received from you all on my problem with my 9N sputtering/backfiring after it ran for 30 or so. I have replaced the coil, checked the fuel line into the carb and the problem continues. I do believe it is a carb problem even though I rebuilt it a couple of monthes ago. I really need to use the tractor now, so my question is do I try and rebuild this originial carb or do I get a new zienth and hope the problem is fixed.
thanks
rob

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Dell (WA)

01-14-2004 10:57:55




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 Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 12:34:09  
Rob..... ....a new carb AIN'T gonna correct clogged fuel flow problems.

Suggest you seriously consider the merits of replacing BOTH your $20 under the tank fuel valve with its non-replaceable filter AND the fuel line between the fuel valve and a new carb elbow filter..... ....Dell



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9njoe

01-14-2004 10:33:38




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 Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 12:34:09  
Rob,

Check this out, I have a briggs engine on my small tractor. The engine was acting like you describe. Finally found that there were small ice crystals in the gas tank that were collecting in the fuel line and restricting flow. Nothing solid, more like little grains of sand. It has been pretty cold lately so maybe your fuel starvation problem is ice related. Just a suggestion, good luck.

Joe

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ZANE

01-14-2004 06:41:41




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 Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 12:34:09  
I think you have fuel starvation.

There are at least three screens in the N fuel system that can be obstructed causing the problems and you need to eleminate them all.

One is in the elbow where the fuel line enters the carburetor.

One is the screen on top of the fuel bowl.

One is in the tank on the fuel valve.

You should remove all three and assure that they are fully open and clear of any foriegn materials that is restricting the fuel flow.

I don't think you are going to find the problem is with the float or the needle and seat in the carburetor. Usually when the needle and seat or float give trouble it results in too much gas in the bowl instead of too little.

Zane

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Rob in VA

01-14-2004 05:16:32




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 Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 12:34:09  
Thanks for all the advise on the problem. I am hurridly checking some of the things mentioned in the posts. But my gut feeling says it is the carb and this is why. The other day while spreading gravel the tractor ran great for about 30 minutes, then started sputtering something terrible, so I took Dell's advise and put on the new coil I had just bought. This time it ran good for about 5 minutes before the same symptoms krept reappeared for a few minutes and then went away for another 20 or so minutes. The old beast never quit on me, but spreading gravel while the engine is jerking all over leave a lot to be desired. Anyway, this continue for several hours until the tractor quit and would not start. I checked the bowl of carb and no gas in it, so I yanked if off and tried to adjust the float. I did notice the jet sticking a little. Before reintalling the carb I made sure the gas was flowing thru her. After bolting the carb back on I was working again, but this time for only for say 10 minutes before the problem reappeared and the tractor quit. Checked the flow thru the carb and on drops at a time. Took carb off again, tried to adjust but after a few minutes same thing. I have heard that these old carbs are famous for this, so I bought a new one and see if this works. Again thanks for all the advise, if the new carb doesn't work, I will back on here searching for an answer.
rob

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souNdguy

01-14-2004 07:13:03




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 Re: Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-14-2004 05:16:32  
This message clearly shows fuel delivery problem. You keep stating that it stops, and you look in the carb and it is dry, or you open the plug an only drips come out..

If it can't get fuel.. it can't run. Check the lines from the tank to the elbow, and after the elbow. Check to see how much gunk you have in the tank.. there is probably a handfull of stuff clogging up the top filter in the tank..

Soundguy

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rob ling

01-14-2004 14:25:10




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 Re: Re: Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to souNdguy, 01-14-2004 07:13:03  
I appreciate your and Dell's comments on the fuel flow prior to the carb, but I have check, rechecked and double checked all the lines leading to the carb and each time there is plenty of flow. I also had good flow thru the carb after trying to adjust the float. Each time it quit on me I would take the line off at the carb and check, good flow each time. I would then take the filter out of carb, clean every time. And like I mentioned before, after adjusting the float, I would have good flow through the carb, but then after running it for a while, it would start to starve of fuel. You all will probably prove me wrong, but the new carb is on its way and I will let you know the outcome. Please be easy on me if it is not the carb causing the problem.
rob

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souNdguy

01-14-2004 16:29:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to rob ling, 01-14-2004 14:25:10  
How does hte fuel in the glas bowl look? Any trash?.. It doesn't take much to clog a jet up, or to stick a float. If you do indeed have good flow with no obstructions, then you might get lucky on the carb... just make sure all the screens are intact.. you don't want trash getting into the new carb.


We'll be easy... besides.. it doesn't hurt long!
(wink)

Soundguy



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ratface

01-13-2004 18:42:05




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 Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 12:34:09  
Rob I'm a novice but If you can get the tractor to run fine for one minuete don;t do anything until you change the condensor. If you already did take the time to try another, maybe just got a bad one out of the box.



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Upper Peninsula, Mich

01-13-2004 18:05:29




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 Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 12:34:09  
Rob, you have been at this for quite some time and still have the same problem. You have done the following right:1. rebuilt carb. 2. new coil. 3. checked gas flow into carb. 4. drained gas from the bottom carb plug and it drained for a while then quit. 5. Cracked the gas tank cover to see if it was venting, was it OK? 6. replaced and set points properly.7. Put in new condenser, did you put one in? 8. Checked that you have good spark to the plugs by laying a plug with it's wire attached across the top of the engine and turn it over.Do this before and after the problem. 9. When it quits, did you try to squirt some starter fluid into the carb intake to see if it would restart? 10. You were either going to replace the key ignition or jumper around it to see if it was the cause,did you? 11. I don't remember if this is still 6 volt,if it is, did you check the balast resister to see if it is working. How to do? Either replace it with a new one, or when the tractor quits, temporary jumper around it and see if would start up. Rob, If you have done all of the above and you think it is the carb, then I agree with you that it is not getting the gas after 20-30 minutes of running. Lets think about this gas problem? When it quits did you immediately check for gas flow into the carb and was there adequate flow? If not the problem is between the carb and the tank. If I remember you have an inline filter. Did you check or replace it? If adequate gas flow at the time of quiting into the carb, then it has to be in the carb, right? I assume the filter in the carb is clean, right. If so then the problem is probably in the float adjustment, closing too early and starving the engine. Rob you got more than my two cents,hope this works or helps someone else diagnose your problem. Good Luck. Ron

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cdb ohio P.S.

01-13-2004 14:22:49




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 Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 12:34:09  
Check you ballast resistor for clean connections, no cracks, not burned out anywhere. (Pull it off and inspect it to be .... :)



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cdbohio

01-13-2004 14:18:58




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 Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 12:34:09  
Rob, I guess your at the point where your ready to start throwing money at your tractor cause you "gotta have it." When I get to this point I try to section the tractor up into parts and work on it till I hit the SURE stage. That is I am SURE this or that is not the problem. Also you need to set back and think about it for awhile. Why does it run for a while fine then go bad? Well something is either heating up and breaking down or something is clogging up. First are you SURE all your wires are good. Try running it in the dark (I mean pitch black) and when it starts acting up look for sparks arking to ground. Some times this takes a very long time but look over every inch of the wireing. Look close around the coil and dist. Check wireing to the dist. with an ohm meter and wiggle the wires around. I have found broken wires inside good insulation. Look for places where the wires were bent or smashed. After engine is heated up is the spark good at the plugs. Not just a spark but a good blue cracking spark. Put new plugs in it. I have had plugs that worked good at idle/low rpm and bummed out at high rpm. Switch bad?, loose connections?, dirty connections, Points good? (NEW?), nothing broken on dist. Are you SURE?. Try spraying some water on the wires (like a windex bottle) Shorts will show up quick.
OK, now that your sure (get it?) go to the fuel section. Tank has new gas, clean, no water. Look inside tank with a flashlight, If you see little clear globs floating around on the bottom you have water. Use dry gas. Check flow to carb. Should be substantial.Not a small trickle. GOOD flow. Might as well rebuild the carb. Good Parts, everything set per the manual. Are you SURE. Compression check it. wet/dry. Everything ok. Check manifold for leaks or cut outs in the block. Only way is to pull it off. I pulled mine off cause I thought it only needed a gasket. On the engine side it was split apart and eaten away. If your sure its good use new gasket and reinstall. Try running it with the exhaust pipe off. Furry things have been known to live in the muffler and plug it up. If you have spark, fuel, good fuel/air mix, compression and the exhaust can get out "It will run". Clean air filter.(take it apart and clean it. Make sure... All of this will take the better part of a weekend. Keep your cool and good luck. P.S. Most of us have been where you are, if not the N's then something else in life. You'll get it if you stick with it.

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Bruce (VA)

01-13-2004 12:46:36




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 Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 12:34:09  
Rob, my advice is try one more rebuild if for no other reason than cost. Did you soak the carb in a carb cleaner & blow out all the passages w/ an air gun? Did you check the float drop? Did you lay a straight edge across the carb body (top & bottom) and insure the 2 halves mated firmly in the middle? And lastly, are you sure you do not have a carb/manifold leak? If none of this works & a new carb is in order, pls get back w/ us as to source; I've heard stories about new carbs that don't work, but nothing about those that do work!

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old

01-13-2004 13:23:10




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 Re: Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Bruce (VA), 01-13-2004 12:46:36  
Bruce value bilt sold me one for my JD-B and it works great didn't even have to set it as it was already set so now you know of one place that seems to have good stuff



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uh? . . . Dell (WA)

01-13-2004 16:58:19




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 Re: Re: Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to old, 01-13-2004 13:23:10  
OLD..... .....are you recommending using a (byte my tongue) John Deere carburator for the carb used on FORD tractors?

Are you saying that the 1250 rpm, 24.6 hp, 190 cu/in JD M/S carb is a replacement for the 2200 rpm, 23.2 hp, 119 cu/in Ford M/S carb? I don't think so..... ...respectfully, Dell



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old

01-13-2004 17:21:31




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to uh? . . . Dell (WA), 01-13-2004 16:58:19  
NO Bruce wanted to know how some of the carbs you can buy worked as far as being good or bad Dell



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Rob in VA

01-13-2004 17:13:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to uh? . . . Dell (WA), 01-13-2004 16:58:19  
Dell,

What about a new Zeinth carb that is made for the 9n? I really believe it is the carb because there is little gas coming from the plug. Once it fills up, the tractor runs great for about 1 minute then starts to sputter. If the new carb doen't work, I will check the other things mentioned on this site.
rob



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Bob

01-13-2004 21:24:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 17:13:04  
Is there a FLOAT DROP setting on your carb?

That is an extra tab on the float that controls how far the float drops when the float bowl gets very low of gasoline. Lots of carbs have this setting, but I haven't been lucky enough to OH an 'N' carb for several years, and I don't recall if they have a float drop setting. If it has a float drop setting, this should be set to spec, or if there is no float drop setting, a bent float could be hitting something in the carb, preventing the float from dropping enough to open the needle valve enough to allow gas to flow into the carb fast enough to keep up with engine demand.

Have you tried a different needle and seat? Sometimes the needle and seat assembly used in a type of carburetor will vary with the application... size of engine, or whether or not a fuel pump is used. Could the wrong one have sneaked into there?

With a cool engine, not running, when you remove the drain plug from the bottom of the carburetor, you will get a fast flow of gas, for the first half-cup, or so that the float bowl holds. Then the flow will slow down to the amount that can get into the carburetor through the needle and seat, and as long as this flow is somewhat more than the engine needs at full load, it is adequate.

I'm sure you've checked for a good flow of gas from the gas line, at the carburetor, and checked your screen that protrudes into the carb from the brass elbow gas line fitting. Check the passage that the screen/elbow screws into for foreign material blocking the flow of gas to the needle and seat.

If you are sure the problem is related to a shortage of gas, try spraying a stream of carburetor cleaner into the carb air intake while it is sputtering. If the mixture is lean, the carb cleaner will richen it and settle down the motor. (Use good old-fashioned carb cleaner such as Gumout for the test. Modern enviro-friendly stuff probably won't "burn" as well in the motor.
If you decide to do this (you'll have the tube from the air cleaner removed), have a fire extinguisher handy, and keep face and body back, 'cause if it bacfires with the air intake tube off, it may puff out flaming gasoline.

If problem is definitely not ignition, a couple of other freak things... Bad head gasket causing slight combustion gas leak between two cylinders, or an intake leak... hidden crack in intake manifold, or bad intake gasket that leaks worse as engine heats up.

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old

01-13-2004 17:23:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 9N Still Sputtering in reply to Rob in VA, 01-13-2004 17:13:04  
Well I'm not Dell but I did get a new carb for my 8N a few years ago and haven't had any more problems out of it, as a matter of fact it starts in any weather and that is with no choke and runs very well



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