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Ford 9N, 2N & 8N Discussion Forum
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I love a good controversy; extended bendix

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Rob

08-04-2005 13:51:04




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I"ve been cogitating on this. I know a good bendix on a good starter will retract everytime; free air, on the engine, whatever. I know that from having worked on a few including the old style on the starter sitting on my work bench as I type this post. This business about a bendix can’t retract unless the engine fires or the gear is spun real fast cannot be true. A good bendix on a good starter will retract when you get off the power regardless of whether the engine fires or starts or even if the starter is under your foot in the floor.

“Rob..... ...thats the trouble, the Bendix is designed to extend into the flywheel ring gear. That is the ONLY direction the starter motor can move the Bendix screw; INTO the flywheel ring gear. Doesn"t matter iff"n its a suck"em into from behind the flywheel, or push"em into from infront the flywheel.
When the engine starts, its rotational velocity is greater than the starter motor rotational velocity, therefore the starter Bendix "UN-SCREWS" from contact with the flywheel ring gear.
Running a starter motor in "free-air" DOES NOT RETRACT the Bendix screw ...EVER... Understand? Remember, no-matter what the battery polarity, the starter motor ALWAYS turns the correct direction to ENGAGE the Bendix screw. And the running engine ALWAYS turns the correct direction to dis-engage the Bendix screw.
And YES, Bendix drives MUST-BE SQUEEKIE CLEAN. I use acetone or spray brake-cleaner. WD-40, kerosene, mineral spirits, Stoddards, MMO, all leave "deposits" and will gunk-up yer Bendix screw..... ....respectfully, Dell”
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This idea that the only way a bendix can retract is if the engine starts and increases the rotational velocity cannot be true. It cannot be true because the bendix on your tractor does retract even if when the engine doesn’t start or fire. And the bendix rotation is sure not increased by an engine that didn"t start or even fire.

It is important to not grease a bendix. As for leaving deposits, well maybe some guys get greasy paint thinner/mineral spirits/Stoddards but we get the good stuff around here and it does not leave a deposit.

Now a kicker here is that the old style bendix on that starter out on my bench is certainly oiled. It’s been on my "44 for many years and done a fine job and never failed. Here it is on the bench now and it’s easy to see there is oil up inside the enclosed part of the bendix assembly. I can wipe the oil off the shaft and spin the starter, the gear extends and then retracts and the shaft is oily all over again so it definitely has lube up in there where you can’t get to without disassembly. As for the new bendix style, well those go together dry; no grease for sure.

I think the new style is more prone to getting stuck extended but if it’s a good, clean bendix on a good starter then it won’t stick extended. If that had to happen then a bendix would stick extended every time an engine failed to fire and start. So anyway, if your bendix it hanging out there extended you have a problem, that is not right and it is not the way it is suppose to work. Keep looking.

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B. Jones

08-04-2005 17:14:00




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Rob, 08-04-2005 13:51:04  
I also bought one of the new style starter drives. I turned it until it also " stuck" extended that is. I finally gave up trying to get it back down. I just installed the starter with the drive extended. It worked great. I didn't have much trouble at all getting it on with the drive extended. Next time I'll just install it and not worry about the starter drive being extended.



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Rob

08-04-2005 17:17:57




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to B. Jones, 08-04-2005 17:14:00  
Well listen to you!

Great plan. That"s the cure, forget about the rest.



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McNugget

08-04-2005 15:35:39




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Rob, 08-04-2005 13:51:04  
Rob,

I"m watching these threads waiting for the answer. I dutifully rebuilt my starter, bushings and all, and installed a new bendix. It"s as clean as it can be. I had to see it run, so I clamped it down and jumped it with a hot 6V battery. It extended. It stayed extended. I"m still trying to get it back into the retracted position...

My wire wheel doesn"t have enough snort to spin it back. I"ve tried wrapping a cord around it and giving it a good rip, but I only got a sore arm. I have looked it over and I have no idea where one sticks a "small, thin screwdriver" to retract the prawls. I"m half tempted to take the $%!#@ thing apart and convince myself about how it works.

The ring gear to starter is something like a 103:9 ratio, so even at an ideal idle (400rpm) the bendix is going to be screaming for mercy (4000+rpm). Maybe I should apply more voltage (12V battery) - ?

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Rob

08-04-2005 15:55:23




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to McNugget, 08-04-2005 15:35:39  
I just extended that old bendix. I can hear the pawls lock and it stays extended. So I grabbed hold and twisted it back the other direction and it retracted. Simple as that. Maybe it"s worn or maybe it"s that oil in there.
So then I jumed it off the car 12v and it spun like crazy and extended. Took the power off and it retracted. That"s in free air, no load.



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Rob

08-04-2005 15:41:57




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to McNugget, 08-04-2005 15:35:39  
Some guys end up taking it apart to make it retract.

Go put it on 12v and see what happens. It won"t hurt it. Just put your foot on it to hold it down because it will kick.

Let us know. I"m going to take this old style out to jump off 12v in a bit. They 6v battery I"ve been using has sat in the shop for at least a year and must be low.



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Gaspump

08-04-2005 14:19:58




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Rob, 08-04-2005 13:51:04  
How about the pawls that lock it in the extended position?



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Rob

08-04-2005 14:41:10




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Gaspump, 08-04-2005 14:19:58  
How about them. We know the bendix will hang extended, the question if why. That"s the question because normally the bendix does not hang extended. Like I said, if the engine has to start to retract the bendix then the dang thing would hang everytime an engine didn"t start; but that is not what happens. I don"t have a new style to look at but I would say that the pawls on a good bendix on a good starter are held out by centrifugal force and will not lock. If the starter won"t spin fast enough or the bendix is screwed then the pawls will hang when they aren"t suppose to hang.
How about this, the pawls hang the bendix extended at low rpm"s like when the engine is just cranking but once the speed picks up the pawls are tossed out by centrifugal forces. In free air on the bench the starter spins fast enough all the time so the pawls never engage. Maybe that"s the fix for an extended bendix. Forget the wire wheel on a bench grinder, just put power on the starter motor and let the usual and normal centrifugal force unlock the pawls.

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Gaspump

08-04-2005 15:13:41




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Rob, 08-04-2005 14:41:10  
The pawls hold the drive in the extended position so as to keep the gears engaged when the engine slightly kicks and fails to start. Weak, broken or damaged drives sometimes flutter and the in and out gear gnashing can be punishing. The sustained higher revs of the flywheel of the running engine will cause the pawls to retract in either the old style or ratchet newer drives letting the drive retract. If the engine fails to fire it could be unnoticed if the drive failed to retract and it likely would make no difference. If the pawls fail to engage the drive is of another type or may be faulty.

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Rob

08-04-2005 15:36:35




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Gaspump, 08-04-2005 15:13:41  
How does the higher engine speed cause the bendix to retract? The pawls are still there and locked and then something releases the pawls. What releases the pawls?



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Gaspump

08-04-2005 16:24:04




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Rob, 08-04-2005 15:36:35  
RPM negates spring pressure.



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Rob

08-04-2005 17:05:55




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Gaspump, 08-04-2005 16:24:04  
Centrifugal force?

You get plenty of that spinning the starter on the bench. Pawls should release when the RPM negates any spring pressure.

That"s just how it should work, and if it doesn"t and won"t retract then there is some other problem.



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gahorN

08-04-2005 23:55:04




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Rob, 08-04-2005 17:05:55  
Rob, I think you may be mistaken in the way you visualize how some Bendix drives operate. There are at least THREE different designs that I've observed. There may be more.
Firstly, if an engine does not start...there is no guarantee that all bendix drives retract...when an engine does not start...nor is there any harm in that. Some may simply stay engaged in a non-rotating ring-gear. Not all bendix's are identically designed. Neither do they all retract when the starter is de-energized on engines that did not start. While you are correct that SOME bendix drives retract when not in motion, ...there are some that only retract in free air because the starter armature has stopped in it's forward impetus and is decelerating. Therefore the gear/bendix has a slight over-sped condition and retracts if...as you noted...the assembly is spotlessly clean.
None of these starter drives remain spotlessly clean. Nor do they need to. The various bendix drives are all fairly robust and are not nearly as persnickety as regards dirt as one might think. That's why many of them operate for 50+ years just fine without any attention whatsoever.
Best regards to all...

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Rob

08-05-2005 02:33:01




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to gahorN, 08-04-2005 23:55:04  
Heh! I"m not visualizing anything. I got this starter here and I hook it to a battery and I watch it extend and I watch it retract. No visualizing about it.



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Dave_N_Ga

08-07-2005 05:10:44




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Rob, 08-05-2005 02:33:01  
Rob,
If your Bendix will retract on the bench it's defective or you have one of a different design than the two I have used here. I changed my original because it retract as soon as a cylinder fired but all too often before the engine actually started. The new clutch type I have will not retract untill the engine starts. If the engine doesnt start the drive remains engaged to flywheel untill the next attempt.
There are enough of us here that have extended the drives and been unable to retrat them untill installing them and running the engine.
There's no controversy here.

Dave

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Rob

08-07-2005 06:55:23




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 Re: I love a good controversy; extended bendix in reply to Dave_N_Ga, 08-07-2005 05:10:44  
Well Dave, I imagine if you could really count, there has been a lot more guys have bench tested starters that didn"t extend and lock the bendix.
I"ve got the old style on the bench. I can extend it by hand and it locks out extended. Then I put power to it and it spins and when I take the power off it retracts. That"s how it should work
I"ve run more than a couple of the later style that extend as long as the power it on it and then retracts. That"s what you do when you get a starter off an engine to test it. That"s the first thing they do at the starter shop to see if the starter works.
Maybe it"s that imported later style that locks out. But as you mention, when a guy gets the bendix extended can"t get it to retract he can just install it that way. You install it on the tractor even if it is extended.
Seems if the bendix extended and lock every time the engine didn"t start then it would be hard to tow or push a vehicle or tractor to start it. I"ve done that more then a few times and I don"t believe the bendix was extended. Might be but I don"t think so.
This sticky bendix deal is probably what causes the bendix to lock up the engine. Test that bendix before you install it on the engine to make sure it doesn"t hang extended and avoid that stuck engine problem.
You say you have a bendix that extends and won"t retract. Has your bendix extend and locked up the ring gear?

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