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AC C noisy rods

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Allen H

09-09-2003 21:07:20




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Recently purchased a model C. One of the rods were knocking and I know the engine was rebuilt several years ago and was never run much. Upon disassembling the engine number 3 rod has signs of wear and some on number 2. The cranks has been ground to .020 so everything still looks very good. I checked the oil pressure and flow prior to disassembly. The pressue is near 10 psi and there is flow at the filter and the filter tube is in place. Any suggestions as to why the rod bearings are prematurally wearing and how I might check oil flow through the cam shaft. I don't know if the cam bearing were changed but I assume that if they were not changed the oil leakage would continue to lubricate the connecting rods. Any thoughts or suggestions?

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wdTom

09-13-2003 18:05:14




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 Re: AC C noisy rods in reply to Allen H, 09-09-2003 21:07:20  
If you get into shimming the bearings, as someone said, you need to do it right. As in the right amount of bearing crush. I put the bearings in finger tight on the nuts or cap screws. measure the gap. I think the crush is .002 but don't remember. Anyway if the gap is .020 and you need .002 crush you would need to have .018 shims. Now you need to get the right clearance. If you need to reduce the clearance you need to reduch the ends of the bearing shells, in your case a reduction of .003 to .004. To do this I file the ends of the bearing shells, checking the height of the shell with a dial indicaator, flat surface, with the ends of the shell down on the surface, measuring the height of the bearing. Measure before filing, check often,stop in time. Both sides need to be filed even and square. Place shell on file and do both ends at the same time, carefully. Before you get too close reduce the shims for the proper crush, and check it with plasti gage at the prober torque or close to it. then make another adjustment of bearing shell and shims. After I am within a thou or two I only file the remomeable bearing shell, it is easier than taking both out. You want it so when you torque it you have the correct crush and clearance. And it can be a long process to do all mains and rods. In your case I would check all of them with plastigage, and check the crush too.

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DanD.

09-10-2003 11:59:21




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 Re: AC C noisy rods in reply to Allen H, 09-09-2003 21:07:20  
Oil pressure would not be affected by worn rod bearings on this engine. THe rods are not pressure lubricated, only by splash from holes in the camshaft.



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Dick L Question?

09-10-2003 07:47:42




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 Re: AC C noisy rods in reply to Allen H, 09-09-2003 21:07:20  
(The cranks has been ground to .020 so everything still looks very good.) When was the crankshaft ground? Was it shimmed properly? If it was not shimmed correctly and you had more than the .002 clearance you can still have a knock even though the crank was ground and had new bearing installed. An engine does not have to knock for a very long time to get beat out of round. You need to check the crank to make sure it is not out of round and if it is still ok then install new bearings and make sure it is shimmed properly for .015 to .002 clearance.

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Allen H

09-10-2003 19:51:44




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 Re: Re: AC C noisy rods in reply to Dick L Question?, 09-10-2003 07:47:42  
The way I understand it, the engine was rebuilt about 8 years ago then was unused for 5 or 6 years. When they attempted to use the tractor the rods became noisy so it was again retired. The crank lookes as if it was ground yesterday. I was surprised at the great condition and was expecting the worse. How can I check that the oil is coming through the cam?



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Dick L

09-11-2003 14:07:57




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 Re: Re: Re: AC C noisy rods in reply to Allen H, 09-10-2003 19:51:44  
Check for oil pressuer and flow first. I hate to tell you how many tractors I have purchased that I was told a story that resembles what you were told. The latest was the G I restored last winter. (The engine was rebuilt and was not used much after and was stored because of the bad health of the owner. Dont start now but cant be much wrong.) When I took the engine apart I found that it needed all new exaust valves and all the guides were sloppy. The crankshaft was out of round and had to be ground. The cylinders had to be bored as they were wore out of round as well.
To your question as to checking the oil squirting out of the cam onto the rods. I would say other than putting in a window in the side of the block I know of no easy way.
If it were my tractor and it aint, I would put the engine on an engine stand, pull it apart, and check every thing out. To start with first you might take the oil line off where it runs from the oil pump to the head and see it you have oil pressure there. If you do you should have oil down the center of the cam. If someone in the (rebuild?) thought it needed a different cam and put one in out of a late year CA that had pressure thru the crank to the rods there will be no holes in the cam. My pulling C I drilled the crank myself for oil and used one of these cams. If in the (rebuild?) they needed a rod and used one from one of those later engines it would not have the hole for the oil to get into the rod bearings. The rods are the same except for the oil hole.
Rebuilds that have been done by people that think they know is much different than one done by someone that does know the details. This is why I would take it totally apart and check the details.

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Allen H

09-11-2003 19:27:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: AC C noisy rods in reply to Dick L, 09-11-2003 14:07:57  
Dick, I checked the rods for the oil holes and also noticed holes in the cam directly inline with the rods. Also the cam is dripping oil so I assume this oil is residual in the pump and is pushed through the cam when I turn the engine. Also I checked the crank for out of round and it is ok. Using plastigauge the clearance is at .005 which is excessive on # 3. I wonder if the rebuild used the wrong shims? The present shims measure .020. What is your thoughts on this?

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Dick L Looks Like

09-12-2003 07:28:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AC C noisy rods in reply to Allen H, 09-11-2003 19:27:33  
You found the problem. Good Deal! If the OEM shims were used they would be the kind you can peel off layers of the shim to get the correct clearance. If they were cut from .020 shim stock you will eather buy the OEM shims from someone like Sandy Lake or buy .005, .002, and .001 shim stock and cut the needed shims to get the clearance for each rod. If the rods were shimed wrong you will most likely find the mains that way also. Same clearance is correct for both.
Another thing to watch for is when you get close to the correct clearance and turn the crank over and it starts to get hard to turn you will have to file the ends of the bearing inserts slightly to keep them from acting as a brake. You will hear the term bearing crush, the need to be tight against each other, but to much crush causes the bearings to clamp down on the crankshaft. Shiming bearings can take a bunch of time the first time, might even make you say nasty things about how things were done in the 40's and before.

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Allen H

09-12-2003 19:48:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: AC C noisy rods in reply to Dick L Looks Like, 09-12-2003 07:28:39  
Dick, thanks for all the help.



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