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1958 801B Stubborn Starting...

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larryNeohiocase

12-03-2007 05:52:33




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So how crucial is the block heater for starting these diesels? Seems like the only 100% way to start this beast first thing is to pull it or shoot it with starting fluid. That just doesn't seem right to me. After it's been started it's fine up to about 4-5 hours later. Seems like the longer is sits the harder it is to start. I had it running yesterday, re-checked the valve adjustments and those were fine. The last time that I started it yesterday afternoon was about 3 pm. Went back about 830 pm and it started but not with out cranking it for a good 10 mins. By the way it was ~50 out when I tried it in the evening. This morning the temps dropped a good 15-20 degrees and at 730 am it just cranked and cranked. Plenty of exhaust smoke and acted like it wanted to but never popped off.

Any suggestions?

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larryNeohiocase

12-04-2007 05:53:43




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
I started stripping the 830 COM last night but before I started I plugged the 801's block heater in. I was working for about 3 hours and before I stopped for the night I tried to start the 801 and it was cranking kinda slow. So I guess I shoulda put the batteries on the charger also. Anyway, I hit it with ether and she popped off then quit. Hit it again and she caught and ran, (After clearing out the unburnt fuel). Then she restarted just fine after that. Wondering about replacing the block heater and the ether starting aid that was bolted to the side of the dash that someone removed before I got her.

Any suggestions? I'm kinda in agreement that I can buy a bunch of starting fluid for the $1,000.00 that a rebuild kit would cost.
Thanks,
Larry

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Jim B

12-04-2007 16:02:19




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-04-2007 05:53:43  
Not much need to replace: "the ether starting aid that was bolted to the side of the dash"! Those gadgets used ether capsules that needed to be loaded into the units cylinder then the operator pushed down the plunger, breaking the capsule and forcing the ether into the intake manifold. So it says in the operators manual! We still have the thing on our 800 Diesel but have never seen the capsules anywhere. I'd say (today) they're only good for shows where originality is desired. Starting fluid, aerosol cans, work OK and are available. Just don't use too much. We crank her for about 5-10 seconds (to build oil pressure) then spray into the intake stack, not directly into the manifold. We feel, that way, the air cleaner tends to prevent the shot from being too dense. Works OK for us as long as the batteries are healthy. When it's below freezing and she hasn't been started for a few weeks... then we put it on the battery charger for about 1/2 hour, switching the charger to 'start' mode just before cranking.

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toolz

12-03-2007 21:16:39




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
My 900 starts great down to about 40, below that, I give it a little puff of ether, and she bangs right off. It runs way too good to consider engine work, and ether is about $1.50 a can.



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Gary from Iowa

12-03-2007 17:39:12




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
Larry - A lot of good advise on what to do, but one thing that was not discussed was how fast you are turning the engine over when you are trying to start it. Having been around and currently owning a few Case deisel tractors I know for a fact that you have to have good cranking power so that the engine turns over fast enough to continue the firing process. Make sure that the batterys, starter, cables, etc. are in good condition. My 830 has been completly gone through, however, it has old batterys. First cold spell I went to move it and it would turn over, but not start. Replaced the batterys, and on a colder day it turned over faster and started right up.

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larryNeohiocase

12-04-2007 05:24:29




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to Gary from Iowa, 12-03-2007 17:39:12  
Yeah sorry about that I forgot to mention that I put 2 brand new 6 volt batteries in it when I first started this project. So spinning over as good as they will allow. But thanks Gary I knew that sufficient battery power would be a must.



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Tim in New York

12-03-2007 16:15:42




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
Hey Larry,

Again, I'm right about at the same point as you with my 700. Did you get the plug out of the block to install the block heater? I can't get mine to budge - probably has been in there for 48 years. Next steps are to pull the generator to get more room to work, and try to heat the plug carefully with a light torch. Just wondering if you already figured this step out?

Tim in New York

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larryNeohiocase

12-04-2007 05:31:42




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to Tim in New York, 12-03-2007 16:15:42  
Tim,
That's way too funny... It seems like you and I should be working in the same garage on these things. Mine already has the block heater installed. Now I have no idea if it's any good or not. Trying to avoid draining the antifreeze AGAIN to pull it and check. I can't imagine that it'd be too tough to remove the plug. Then again the critters are almost 50 years old. Now I have already used 2 full cans of PB Blaster on this thing. Try soaking it for a couple of days with PB Blaster, mayeb spray it in the morning and in the evening and see if that loosens it up. Did you also think of using a dent puller?

How about you send me a couple of pics of your problem child? I'd love to see how she looks...

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j heitkemper

12-03-2007 15:24:38




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
Best of luck to You ,our 800 will start down in the 20 s here , Please Know we spent upwards of$2 K ,overhaul , injectors,fuel pump ect .however . I must Say, It started fairly well before All that work,.. I am betting on A poor set of Injectors ,,



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larryNeohiocase

12-04-2007 05:36:19




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to j heitkemper, 12-03-2007 15:24:38  
J,
Thanks for the input. I'm trying to avoid the overhaul. And I already had the injectors cleaned, tested and rebuilt. That was one of the first things that I suspected.
Larry



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dummy

12-03-2007 10:03:48




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 Re: ask bradley martin in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
a diesel that is getting worn will often start better with worn injectors, the surplus fuel will help seal the rings raising the cyl. pressure, like doing a wet comp. test but I would listen to Bradley as he knows it all, NOT!!!



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larryNeohiocase

12-03-2007 10:31:26




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 Re: ask bradley martin in reply to dummy, 12-03-2007 10:03:48  
LMAO...

Ok but I'd still like to know if there is a way, other than guessing, to tell if I need to rebuild this critter. I bought it not runnning and now I can start it but I'd like to be able to start it in the winter also LOL



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bradley martin

12-03-2007 14:04:45




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 Re: ask bradley martin in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 10:31:26  
Larry; A compression check is a good place to start (if you have access to a diesel gauge and adaptor) Max compression 455 psi@ 70 dgrees F,1000 ft above sea level, l600 r,pm. Maxomum variation between cylinders of 25 psi. Following that, pull the heads, Carefully inspect valves and sleeves. If sleeves are scuffed or visibly worn, you know where you are headed. Use an inside micrometer to measure the inside of the sleeve just below the carbon ring, parrellel to the crank and a right angles. Case specs call for a maximum out of round measurement of .002 and a maximum diameter of 4.133 inches. Hope this helps.

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larryNeohiocase

12-04-2007 05:41:03




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 Re: ask bradley martin in reply to bradley martin, 12-03-2007 14:04:45  
Bradley,
Yeah I have no access to the tester that you are talking about let alone know where to hook it up to the cylinders. And I have to be honest if I'm gonna pull the heads to check I'm just gonna ring, sleeve and piston the beast anyway so I can't say that I'd even bother checking to see if it was needed. With what I've seen on this tractor since I started working on it I am about 100% certain that the previous owner didn't do it and was pretty much full of... well never mind. LOL

But thanks for the advice Bradley.
Larry

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Eagle Doc

12-03-2007 09:42:10




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
Larry,
A good block heater, plugged in for a few hours will let the engine start as if it were a summer day of 70 degrees.



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larryNeohiocase

12-04-2007 05:47:01




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to Eagle Doc, 12-03-2007 09:42:10  
Doc,
Do you have any idea how many amps that the block heater should pull? And do you have any suggestions on where I could pick up a new one in case this one is bad?
Thanks,
Larry



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Jim B

12-04-2007 15:36:51




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-04-2007 05:47:01  
Do you realize that the block heaters are 120 Volt? They don't power from the tractor 12V system, like glow plugs and manifold heaters. Plug em in any household outlet. I'm sure they will not blow a 15amp, 120V circuit.



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LarryNeohiocase

12-05-2007 05:16:48




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to Jim B, 12-04-2007 15:36:51  
Jim B,
Yes I know that you plug the block heater into household eletrical service. The one that is on mine when I plugged it in tripped the breaker. That"s why I was asking about the amps. If the block heater should pull like 10-15 amp and it trips a 20 amp breaker then I"d know that the block heater has a problem. Larry



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Jim B

12-05-2007 10:23:29




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to LarryNeohiocase, 12-05-2007 05:16:48  
The block heaters on our 930 and 2470 do not trip the 20amp breaker feeding the circuit. Suggest you check the resistance (Ohms) across the terminals on the cord/plug. Don't know what it should be but certainly not a dead short, or 'infinity' on the meter. For comparison, perhaps you could take your VOM to a retailer and compare against a new one. Maybe a new heater will have the amperage shown on the device or package. Also, if you properly measure the Ohms(R), and know the Voltage(V), the Amperage(A) can be calculated using the formula: A=V/R. Example: A(Amperage)=120V(Volts) divide by 10R(measured Ohms)= 12Amps.
Remember, that's one of the formulas within "Ohms Law".

On our heaters the Amperage must be over 10 because a trouble light with 16 gauge wire isn't heavy enough to be used as an extension cord, the wire gets warm. We use a 12 gauge extension cord.

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LarryNeohiocase

12-05-2007 10:37:07




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to Jim B, 12-05-2007 10:23:29  
Ok Jim I'm not stupid... I was just going to check and see what the amp draw was on the cord when i first plug the heater in...



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Jim B

12-05-2007 11:04:33




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to LarryNeohiocase, 12-05-2007 10:37:07  
Hey Larry, I wasn't at all implying you, or anyone else, are "Stupid"... just offering information that perhaps can help answer your question(s).

Sorry if I offended You, or Anyone.

As a frequent user of this CASE YT forum I learn alot and hopefully help some folks in-turn with my posts. But I certainly don't know yours (or any another readers) Aptitude when it comes understanding my comments. As a Retired Mechanical Engineer I've made many technical presentations to audiences who are not always well versed with the subject matter or utilized terminology, that's my reason for being explicate, perhaps too much so sometimes. Sorry.

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LarryNeohiocase

12-05-2007 11:11:20




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to Jim B, 12-05-2007 11:04:33  
Ahhh an engineer that explains a lot... LOL

No offense taken and thanks for your insight.



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larryNeohiocase

12-03-2007 09:45:47




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to Eagle Doc, 12-03-2007 09:42:10  
Well guys here's hoping that the block heater is all that is needed... If a rebuild is in store it'll sit until spring for that.



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bradley martin

12-03-2007 09:38:47




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
Sounds like poor compression...time for a rebuild? I've found that these engines start good down to about the freezing point when they are in good condition(below that temp you will need to use the glow plug Or either). As the hours accumulate,the temperature that they will start at without the glow plugs or a snort of either will gradually increase. If it will not fire on its own at 50 degrees, its time for new sleeves and pistons.

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larryNeohiocase

12-03-2007 09:57:37




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to bradley martin, 12-03-2007 09:38:47  
Ok I'll bite how do you tell 100% for sure if pistons and sleeves are required? The beast sounds and acts like it has good compression...



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larryNeohiocase

12-03-2007 08:25:18




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
Gene,
Sounds like great advice! Only hang up with that is that I just had the injectors cleaned texted and rebuilt.

I know that it's getting plenty of fuel because of the volume of smoke when trying to start and the fact that after it does start the beast runs really rough until it cleans out the un-burt fuel. Too bad these things weren't equipped with glow plugs or some other type of pre-heater...

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Jim McVay

12-03-2007 20:15:14




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 08:25:18  
The 730s intake has a glow plug in them. Maybe you could swap out for a 730 intake. If you check the compression you should be able to go down to 300 psi and still be OK if they are even.



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larryNeohiocase

12-04-2007 05:45:14




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to Jim McVay, 12-03-2007 20:15:14  
Jim,
That is really good information thanks. I bought a 830 COM for some of the parts to go on my 801 and I noticed on the dash by the ignition the sticker that had HEAT to the left and START to the right. And if I'm not mistaken the 730 had the 267 cid diesel and the 830 had the 301?
Thanks,
Larry



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JGarner

12-04-2007 11:43:24




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-04-2007 05:45:14  
Lary, our 1963 830 had the glow plugs and the worked great down into the +20s. After that WITHOUT using the glow plugs just a hint of ether (starting fluid)would start it. The only time I can remember it not starting was the night it got down to about -60, then the only thing we could start that morning was the JD R and even that had to run about 2 tanks of pony motor gas to finally heat the water in the big engine to be warm enough to turn over even with a compression release.

Just use a hint (sniff) of ether. I understand that too much will have the potential cracking heads on the big 30 series tractors.

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Gene Dotson

12-03-2007 08:06:36




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 Re: 1958 801B Stubborn Starting... in reply to larryNeohiocase, 12-03-2007 05:52:33  
The first thing that comes to mind is to remove and clean the injectors. After a period of time, they become dirty from soot and foreign material. Pull the injectors and remove the nozzle. Remove the pintle and clean in MEK or gun cleaner, then with a coft cloth and fine lapping compound, polish the pintle tip and barrel. Then with a small piece of cloth and a little compound, polish the inside of the barrel bore. Throughly clean all parts with MEK or gun cleaner and compressed air. Lubricate with clean diesel fuel and reassemble. Be sure to keep the pintle and barrel together so thay go back into the same part. The copper gaskets can be annealed by heating with a torch and quickly quenching them in cold water. This will soften them so they will seat and seal properly... Gene

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