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Crawlers, Dozers, Loaders & Backhoes Discussion Forum

Case 310 steering

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Art Langevin

04-04-2004 06:29:17




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Hi, I purchaed a 310 crawler about a year ago so I am new to this.I am having a steering problem - If I tturn to the right most of the time the crawler stops. I pulled the whinch and got into the rear end. The brake linings seem fine. When I bought the unit I received a set of manuals foe a G series but the unit is missing the I D tag.To go further What I am looking at in the manual doesn't quite match what I am seeing. On the side of each brake band there is a large recessed type screw head recessed in a small collar - my books don't show what this is. In addition the oil in the case when I pulled the cover was VERY thick - I dont know if this would affect steering or not. ANY help would be greatly appreciated Thanks .Art

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jdemaris

04-06-2004 05:51:58




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 Re: Case 310 steering in reply to Art Langevin, 04-04-2004 06:29:17  
I disagree with what Karen states about both sides always driving. I've got several crawlers with the Clark planetary drive transaxles. Case used it, so did Terratrac, Cletrac, and Bombardier. I've got three good running crawlers, my neighbor has eight, and I've had many more apart. Under most conditions you will have power to both tracks - either both turning the same speed, or one subtantially slower than the other, but not under ALL conditions. You CAN make one track totally stop while the other is driving. If desired, I've got the Clark mechanical drawings here, and also a differential sitting on my desk, all apart for anyone who cares to scrutinize. It's quite possible your differential is falling apart; they do that. The tie bolts and dowels that hold the unit together tend to come loose and/or break - it's a common problem. Pull the back trans. cover off and inspect. In regard to oil, EP (extreme pressure additives) tend to clog the brake bands, especially phosphorus and sulfur. That's why Clark calls for GL1 or SAE non-detergent motor oil to be used. Case might of added their own specs. Most call for SAE 30 weight up to SAE or GL1 140 oil depending on the ambient temperature.

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george md

04-06-2004 10:41:27




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 Re: Re: Case 310 steering in reply to jdemaris, 04-06-2004 05:51:58  
Jdemaris, Karen is correct, cletrac, terratrac,and
case always maintain power on both tracks all the
time . They cannot stop one track , only a 45%
increase on one track and a 45% decrease on the other track. In a condition of loss of tracksion
one track can stop and other run at double speed,
but a little steering applied to spinning track
will correct the problem. In later years oliver made what is called a spot turn which is a modified version of the controlled differential.

In your travels , have you met a drunk that
uses the name ernest duncan sometimes bud duncan,
and sometimes jason lee wells? Several years ago
he had a little shop up toward crystal lake .

george

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jdemaris

04-06-2004 19:54:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Case 310 steering in reply to george md, 04-06-2004 10:41:27  
Sorry, in my experience you and Karen are wrong. The 45% deal sounded good in the original sales literature though. Exactly what machine to you have with an unmodified Clark planetary drive transaxle that provides full power to both outputs as you describe? There is nothing nebulous or mysterious about how the planetary differential works. I've run over thirty different machines with the Clark transaxle including Avery and MM BFs, Cletrac HGs and OC3s, Terratracs, Case 310s and Bombardiers. Have not encountered one yet that I can NOT stop one track on. Besides simply operating a machine to find out what it can and cannot do, it's not very difficult to interpret the mechanical drawings of power flow designed by Clark. I'd like the name and address on one person that owns, and can demonstrate one of these machines (that hasn't been modified) that gives power to both tracks (or wheels) all the time, in any conditons. I've got an open mind - but -I haven't seen one as you describe in the 40 years I've been screwing around with this stuff. Maybe you can teach me something.

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george md

04-06-2004 23:16:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Case 310 steering in reply to jdemaris, 04-06-2004 19:54:24  
I have a 1942 AG-6 that we bought new and also
have run BG,DG, and FDE cletracs , none of which
will stop one track to turn . I have rented or leased 310 and 350 case, they will not stop one
track. If you look in the specs for a 310 case , you
will find that the turning circle is 20 feet, not
exactly a locked track turn. You may have one stop while the other is slipping
as in any open differential,but you cannot stop one track with a steering lever , by design. In any differential, power is applied equally to both axles, which one turns is controlled by
the load (resistance to rotation),equal load will
have both turning at the same speed . A loss of load on one side will permit that side to rotate
faster and the other to slow or stop , If during that
condition you apply some brake to the faster turning axle the slower one will pick up speed
determined by the amount of load added by the brake.
That is what is meant by power to both tracks as opposed to steering clutch and brake machines that
disengage one track to turn. If your understanding of power applied to both
tracks means that they rotate at the same speed,
then you have missed the theory of a differential. If you need a picture showing minimum turning
radius or some literature explaining that you cannot
stop one track by pulling a control lever , send me an email addy.

george

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jdemaris

04-07-2004 06:17:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Case 310 steering in reply to george md, 04-06-2004 23:16:30  
I have a good understanding of the engineering principles of a differential and the Clark system as used in the machines we are discussing. I've got one, in pieces, sitting here on my desk. Putting aside the rhetoric and erudition for a moment, along with the ubiquitous claims of my being in error, my premise and argument is simply thus: I get on my HG, go forward and push dirt without touching the steering levers, and, under certain soil conditions, one track will COMPLETELY stop while the other turns. I can make it drive by application of the brakes. It's happened many times. My neighbor has the same experience with his HGs, OC3, and Bombardiers. I've also witnessed it occurring on many other machines that use the same differential. You stated, in an April 6 reply to me, "Jdemaris, Karen is correct, cletrac, terratrac,and case always maintain power on both tracks all the time . . ." I assert once again, that if one track will stop when moving forward, this is NOT an example of having "power to both tracks all the time" unless we have a language and terminology problem. As aforementioned, within your penultimate reply to me, you wrote "cletrac, terratrac,and case always maintain power on both tracks all the time" and in your second reply to me you wrote "You may have one stop while the other is slipping as in any open differential" . . . so, which is it? Your two statements appear to be contradictious. At the outset of this discussion, I was simply describing a "real-world" situation and trying to avoid extraneous/erroneous bullsh*t. But, perhaps it's not possible. I run my machine and describe what it does, and someone else tells me it is NOT happening. That leaves a closed set of possibilities including #1 I am dillusional, or perhaps #2 I'm telling mistruths.

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george md

04-07-2004 08:53:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Case 310 steering in reply to jdemaris, 04-07-2004 06:17:26  
Terminology-

you seem to have power (torque applied ) confused with rotation . Even when one side is stopped and the other is spinning the power is applied equally to both
sides , that is what a differential does. If the
power was not there at all times you could not
correct a spinning condition by applying brake
to the faster rotating side.

george



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jdemaris

04-07-2004 19:31:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Case 310 steering in reply to george md, 04-07-2004 08:53:22  
I understand the words; I don't have power and rotation confused; guess we have connotation versus denotation. I've spoken with several operators that like some of the newer crawlers because the "have power to both tracks", all the time, even when turning. By that, they mean both tracks will keep turning. Some newer Cases, Cats, et. al. have it, as opposed to machines with conventional steering clutches that loose power to the declutched side. And the Cletracs, with no steering clutches are often talked up as having "power to the tracks at all times." To many people, this means "both tracks turning." I've met several people that bought Cletracs, and then thought something was wrong with them when one track would stop under certain conditions. I've seen such advice given on these forums many times. In fact, I've had people try to tell ME that my machine must have something broken - which is nonsense. As far as a differential always delivering power equally, I do not agree. A differential offers a differential of speed with constant torque, thus the name. A differential can also "diff out" when an output freewheels and takes all the power from the other. Thus the reason for the automotive use of traction bars, ladder bars, locking, and clutch-controlled differentials. If there is 100X power available, some combination of the sum will always be available to the outputs, but in various combinations.

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george md

04-08-2004 23:12:28




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Case 310 steering in reply to jdemaris, 04-07-2004 19:31:40  
sir, In your last paragraph, second sentence , which is what I said in the earlier post , you have defeated your own arguement . It seems that you want to include positive rotation in this and not just power applied . Maybe a bigger bucket of water would be better.

Now that your dandruff has settled , go look at my web site and the photo hosting for something different. www.georgemillermachine.com and www.imageevent.com/gmachine

comments invited , email is open george

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jdemaris

04-09-2004 06:36:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Case 310 steer in reply to george md, 04-08-2004 23:12:28  
In regard to the URLs you posted with "comments invited", here's a comment. Your webpage URL at: www.georgemillermachine.com installs the following, uninvited pop-up tracking files to the unprotected viewer's computer: c:\windows\cookies\c@trafficmp[1].txt, c:\windows\cookies\@zedo[2].txt, c:\windows\cookies\@z1.adserver[1].txt, and c:\windows\cookies\@tmpad[2].txt



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jdemaris

04-09-2004 05:28:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Case 310 steer in reply to george md, 04-08-2004 23:12:28  
From your point-of-view, perhaps. But . . . that's your problem, not mine. You are using words and phrases like a college professor that's never been out of the classroom - yet you've made it clear that is not the case. What I said is true, and my assertion of the machines NOT "having power to the tracks at all times" is also true - unless we use the dictionary in Bill Clinton fashion. You can play with words ad nauseum if it pleases you. To the average person, in this context, "power to the tracks" carries the meaning of two tracks turning - or pushing enough to accomplish something. Next time someone asks me to fix their crawler because they've lost "power" to one of their tracks, I'll tell them to contact you - because you know where it is.

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Karen

04-05-2004 14:31:45




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 Re: Case 310 steering in reply to Art Langevin, 04-04-2004 06:29:17  
Art, like jim I am not totally clear on what you are saying . But for one, Older 310 and 320's had brake systems that did not adjust on the inside many of those where updated but there are still many out there. Second, it sounds
like you hadve the wrong oil in there which could also effect your braking and ruin your linings!! You MUST USE GL-1 !!!!! NOTHING ELSE !!!!! ! IT IS STRIAGHT MINERAL OIL!!! Anything else will cause you problems I don't care what anybody else tells you !!!! These are planetary drives when you pull a brake it slows that side down 45% so you always have power going through both
sides so if it is not driving then you may have final drive problems . If you need parts I can help you. Just email me.

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jim/pa

04-04-2004 09:39:34




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 Re: Case 310 steering in reply to Art Langevin, 04-04-2004 06:29:17  
i read your post, reread it, and thought about it for a while. i have both a 310d, and a 310g, and what you describe as far as the recessed screw is not in either of my machines. there is only the adjuster bolt on the band itself, and its identical on both my machines. its a "t" headed 1/4-28 bolt, with adjusting nut, and locknut.
what you describe for a symptom i think can only be one of 2 things, if you do have a 310. either your clutch is bad, (slipping), or there is a problem in the left hand drive. in either case there would be additional symptoms. if its the clutch, it should stop to the left also, or at least slow down. if its the left side final, it should pull to the left. can you send a pic of your machine? i would be very interested in obtaining a copy of your manual also. email if i can help, or if we can work something out on the manual, jim
jjwsr@dfnow.com

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JimInOz

04-04-2004 23:57:00




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 Re: Re: Case 310 steering in reply to jim/pa, 04-04-2004 09:39:34  
I'm new to 310's also.Aren't they a diff steer system?Maybe your unit is the later 350.I think I read a post recently ,where a guy thought that a thinner oil made a lot of difference to the steering.I think they were prone to bevel/pinion problems also,esp. when they were used like a D9!
Talk to a Case expert...they will put you right.



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