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Repowering a 560? (long text)

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James

01-19-2002 18:11:15




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First off I will tell you that I have been around John Deeres and have not had much exposure to Farmalls. I am currently building a JD 70 for pulling. I will be able to pull it in 2nd and 3rd gear but I think I will want something a little faster. I wrote the post on putting a V-8 in a M and was thrilled with all the replies (I think this is one of the higher quality boards I have been on). Back to my question, I found a 560 wheatland in a IH slavage yard near my home. It has the remains of a big block Chrysler in it (I might even be able to use this block when I restore my 'Cuda). My idea was repowering it with a two-cycle detroit. That would give it an Oliver super 99 or Massey 98 flavor, and it would sound wicked. Since the 560 had a six cylinder in it there would be more engine room than an M so would a 4-71 fit in it? Add a turbo to it and large injectors and your running road gear! I don't know much about farmall tractors, heck I couldn't even tell if it had TA or not. What do you think on this idea? Any comments or ideas? Heck, if I could get this put together I might even become a convert.

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Diesel Doctor

05-18-2006 11:15:35




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 Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to James, 01-19-2002 18:11:15  
The replies have gotten a bit off track. I am checking if there are any plans, conversion kits or anything else to make things a bit easier to install different engines in farmalls, and of course the 560's.
I have a 4-99 Perkins diesel that would be cute in an H. Call it the HD. Has anyone done something like this and what are the pitfalls. Thanks for any replies.
Diesel Doctor



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dave2_85

01-20-2002 16:38:22




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 Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to James, 01-19-2002 18:11:15  
The 560's were supposed to have had problems with the drive trains, not standing up to the modern six-cylinder engines. IH instituted an extensive program to get these fixed, but maybe one or two slipped thru? Maybe a good idea to check on that? Of course, I read this first in a Deere collector magazine so maybe this colored the info? But I did see it in an IH book, too so there was something to it. ANyway, the pullingest tractor I did see in Antique pulls up here was an IH 660. Spoke softly and carried a big stick. Outdid the Detroit screamers and the "railroad locomotive" 2-cyl Deere 80 diesels.
Just my 2 cents for what it's worth.

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kev@ia

01-20-2002 08:11:34




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 Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to James, 01-19-2002 18:11:15  
Do as you like but if it was mine I bolt in the C-291or C-301, Nuess D-310 or D-358, 300 series D-312 or D-360. Idd rather have a tractor to farm with that can pull a little than a puller that might be running when I need to farm.
my 2 cents
farmer kev



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Tony

01-19-2002 19:43:18




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 Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to James, 01-19-2002 18:11:15  
It would be better if you could find a 660 to do that convert. The 660 has a little more transmission and clutch, to include planetary hubs at each rear wheel. It is much better tractor to handle all the power.

Do your research because there probably is a kit out there somwhere to make your job easier.

Or for the 560 wheatland, you could just find a D282, D301 and add a turbo, or one step further; a DT motor. Yes a 466 with minor modification to tractor will bolt up and keep the IH front to back. MONSTER HP.....

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Hugh MacKay

01-20-2002 02:27:27




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Tony , 01-19-2002 19:43:18  
I am with you all the way Tony, put a DT466 in it. If mankind had been intended to listen to Detroit diesels he would have been born with ear muffs. You fellows at tractors pulls with Detroits are actually driving the public away. A tractor pull is a social event, and you cant socialize much when a Detroit is pulling. Here in my hometown we have on second weekend in Oct. a Truck and Tractor pull, antique cars, antique tractors & eq, treashing,etc. This year the antique car and tractor people refused to participate if the pull went on at the same time as the antique show. Pullers laughed and said we draw the croud. Pull was held Sat. and antique show Sun. Both nice days weather wise. The Sun. croud was double the Sat croud. If you consider that pull fans stay for the show and the antique fans are somewhat a flow through croud, I suspect the spread is even greater. I dont know the exact attendance, I dont need to I have been attending events at those fairgrounds for over a half century.

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1206SWMO

01-20-2002 16:40:09




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 Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Hugh MacKay, 01-20-2002 02:27:27  
Gee Hugh why even have a tractor pull if theres no noise.The more noise the better.Thats what I go to the drag races and tractor pulls for.Get rid of the noise and I'm outta there.

I was at Macon,MO in 1991 for a NTPA pull and got to hear (8) modified tractors each running from 5-7 blown engines.Rodalyn Knox from New Hampshire with (6) JP1 Hemis beat The Banter Brothers from Indiana running (7) blown Chevs.6000 people went wild.

I used to pull a 1966 Oliver 1950 in the 15,000 lb class back in the 70's.I have pulled it in front of 3,000 people at my home town pull and half of them said they only came to hear the little 4-53 Detroit scream.They loved it the night it took two pull offs before a 190 XT AC finally beat me.Have the times changed that much?I used to have people come out to ride on the Oliver's fender just to hear it when I farmed.

Sure it would get old if everyone pulled a Detroit but one every now and then is fun.By the way I guess you wouldnt want to come and ride on the fender of my current 1967 Oliver 1950 thats run in the field with a straight pipe on sometimes.

By the way I say leave it all IH and put in a DT466.

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Hugh MacKay

01-20-2002 17:21:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to 1206SWMO, 01-20-2002 16:40:09  
Read my responces below, I am just viewing what I see crouds do. Maybe if you didnt make so much noise you might have 10000 people there. I farmed all my life, Farmalls and John Deeres. I probably have 25000 hours in a tractor seat. It aint no fun being hard of hearing and I am not bad yet. I could have and all my friends thought I would get into tractor pulling. When modern type pulls hit my area (NS, Canada) I had a new Farmall 1066. The first Farmall over 100 hp the local dealer had sold. On the day of the very first pull my tractor was 80 miles from pull site, (evening pull) and I needed tractor where it was 7 am next morning. If the tractor had been close; who knows? I enjoy pulls as spectator, although I won't interupt my plans much to see one. Hugh

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kev@ia

01-20-2002 09:27:05




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 Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Hugh MacKay, 01-20-2002 02:27:27  
Last year we had 2 tractors with factory Detroits, I think 3 pulls were made total, about the right number. I can see where many more would get real old and not what the fans came to see. kev



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Detroits rule...sometimes

01-20-2002 07:22:42




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 Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Hugh MacKay, 01-20-2002 02:27:27  
Babies cry and the dogs run,cats hide, earthworms sink, when the mighty Detroit goes by. 1948 LA CASE 4/71 ,9500 lbs. Detroit conversion built by Detroit!
Say What? ..... Staight Pipe Donnie
{have fun, work safe, and pull whatever runs}



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Hugh MacKay

01-20-2002 14:54:49




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Detroits rule...sometimes, 01-20-2002 07:22:42  
First let me say, I have not expressed my opinion on pulls. I have operated equipment all my life and will stand by my opinion on mankind being born with earmuffs. All I have expressed about pulls is what I have seen happen. When the antique show wasnt there the pull didnt draw the croud. Another item about pulls. There is a gentleman near who enters his stock S-10 Chevy in pulls. He always wins his class. Pull organizers have often put him up against full size 4x4 even diesels. He has put many mussel trucks to shame. He never makes noise and people are talking about going to see this guy pull two weeks before the pull. Why are they talking about him ? He has the skill and has outpulled a 3/4 DIESEL. When he pulls everyone on fairgrounds is at ringside.

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Don L.

01-20-2002 17:47:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Hugh MacKay, 01-20-2002 14:54:49  
Are you saying the the S10 had a Detroit with a real good mufflers on it? That would be trick. Don L. {just sassin off
PS when I used to truck pull ...this 1949 Chevy pickup , stock as all getout lookin with the original bald no-grip 7.50 x 15 wheels took 1 and 2 nd places in the 2 wheel drive classes{5000 and 6000],had a wore out 302 ford V-8 with two manual trans back to back. A total sleeper...{lookin}

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Hugh MacKay

01-20-2002 18:37:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Don L., 01-20-2002 17:47:18  
Don: Just sassin off aint bad, most of these guys have been wanting to eat me up today. The S-10 is a 4x4. We dont have any 2 wheel truck pulls up here in stock classes. There are some modified or super stock 2 wheel classes. This guy with the S-10 is the highlight of pulls around here. He knows every inch of that little truck. He will chalange anyone that has placed one, two or three in their class, and beleive me there have been some red faces. Hugh

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WHAT DID YOU DAY HUH?

01-20-2002 06:58:39




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 Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Hugh MacKay, 01-20-2002 02:27:27  
I like to hear 2cyle detroits, from a distance. The redesigned 4 cycle Detroit is currently the engine of choice for most large trucking fleets.



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Hugh MacKay

01-20-2002 08:03:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to WHAT DID YOU DAY HUH?, 01-20-2002 06:58:39  
Wont get any argument from me on the 4 cycle Detroits. Drove one last summer in a Freightliner, pulling super B-trains, 1 mile per gallon better than N-14.



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Hugh MacKay

01-20-2002 02:05:21




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Tony , 01-19-2002 19:43:18  
I am with you all the way Tony, put a DT466 in it. If mankind had been intended to listen to Detroit diesels he would have been born with ear muffs. You fellows at tractors pulls with Detroits are actually driving the public away. A tractor pull is a social event, and you cant socialize much when a Detroit is pulling.



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Steven@nd

01-19-2002 18:48:00




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 Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to James, 01-19-2002 18:11:15  
Detroits do NOT use turbos! Turbos are run by engine exhaust gasses.

The Detroit uses a mechanical supercharger. But some don't call it a supercharger, just a scavenging pump, because the 2 cycle diesel will not run without it.

Steven



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353t

01-20-2002 03:04:44




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Steven@nd, 01-19-2002 18:48:00  
sorry but yes turbos too



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Glen Rusling

01-19-2002 22:42:26




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Steven@nd, 01-19-2002 18:48:00  
Detroit Diesel's are 2 cycle engines. They use a mechanically driven "Rootes-Type" supercharger to scavenge the cylinder and supply charge air. Every Detroit Diesel 2 cycle series has had one since 1938 when they were developed. The original blowers were designed and manufactured by Allison for Detroit. In later years turbos were added to provide more air, however because a turbo uses exhaust gas to compress the intake air you cannot start a Detroit without a supercharger.
In the big engines used by EMD the turbos are belt driven to get them up to speed and help alleve the problem og 'turbo-lag". The most common Detroit 2cycles are the 53, 71 and 92 series engines which describe the cubic inche displacement of each cylinder. They come in combinations of inline and V series with 2, 3, 4, 6 8,12 and 16 cylinders.

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john nelson

01-19-2002 21:06:45




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Steven@nd, 01-19-2002 18:48:00  
I had a 6V71T which had a supercharger 'Air pump' and a turbocharger, it was a screamer. It had 2 intake valves each cyl. and an allison automatic. It was in a LN9000 Ford. It also used 2 times as much fuel as the other trucks.



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Tony

01-19-2002 19:32:54




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Steven@nd, 01-19-2002 18:48:00  
Actually, how can I explain this without causing a huge argument, but Detroits came both ways. With and without Turbos. Ever heard of 8V92 how about 8V92T? Or 671, 671T?

GM Detroits all came stock with a blower or supercharger, and could be ordered with a turbo. So he could possibly find someone who has a 471 and install a turbo.



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Steven@nd

01-19-2002 20:17:53




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 Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Tony, 01-19-2002 19:32:54  
I stand corrected. I was not aware that the Detroit could be turboed along with the scavenging pump.

Thanks
Steven



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FM

01-19-2002 18:55:37




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Steven@nd, 01-19-2002 18:48:00  
Thanks for correcting me. Your right. I knew something was wrong with what I was writing but I couldn't figure what it was.



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FM..

01-19-2002 18:27:01




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 Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to James, 01-19-2002 18:11:15  
ALL two cycle detroits use Turbos. I would check your local rules regarding them.



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Detroit Frank

01-20-2002 08:05:13




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to FM.., 01-19-2002 18:27:01  
OK EVERYONE LISTEN!!!!! !!!!!

All 2cycle Detroits have a Supercharger NOT a Turbocharger although some had a Turbo, also in later years when engine builders learned the benefit of the free horsepower that they add. I am a tractor puller and pull Detroits, I have never been told or have ever been told that people would not come to a pull because there would be Detroits there. We have people that will sit in the Hot sun all day long just to see the Detroits pull at the end of the pull in the heavy classes. I am not a big fan of Brand X tractor but I will not knock another brand just because of the color of the paint or the sound of the motor. Here's an idea, if you don't like a certain brand of tractor thats pulling or the noise that it makes maybe that would be a good time to go to the shitter or the consession stand you won't hurt your muffler coddled ears. If a Detroit is built right and the tractor is set up right it will give any brand a run for it's money. Most people think that Detroits are complicated and hard to work on but they are simple if you know what you are doing they are very easy to work on and are very well built, I have never ever come across a Detroit motor anywhere with a rod through the side of the block. Lets just remember one thing, we are there to have fun and if you can't let the other guy have fun with his choice of toy maybe you should take up GOLF because the golf karts are either electric or gas motors with MUFFLERS. Detroit Frank It Ain't Over Till The Detroit Sings!!!

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Blaine Griggs

01-20-2002 17:03:04




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 Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Detroit Frank, 01-20-2002 08:05:13  
Amen Detroit Frank!!I cant beleive someone wants a tractor pull with no noise.I'm glad someone around here knows Detroits as they are a very misunderstood engine.They were one tough little motor.Name any other 212 cube engine that would pull a 6x16 plow and this comes from a IH man with two 1206's.

I have pulled a 15,000 lb 1966 Oliver 1950 many times back in the 1970's.Half the crowd said they came to hear that screamin little 4-53 Detroit.They stayed to the end to hear it and loved it when I got in a pulloff.It had bigger injectors and turned 3300 rpms.I have recently had a picture of the 1950 on the internet with a picture of it winning the 15,000 lb class at the 1970 Ozark Empire Fair in Springfield,MO.We drove it down 100 miles with the muffler on and back home with the straight pipe on.You could hear it for 10-12 miles that night.

Those were the fun days of pulling.

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Jack in Fla

01-20-2002 09:24:11




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 Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Detroit Frank, 01-20-2002 08:05:13  
Frank, well said if youy can't run with big dogs then GET UNDER PORCH!!

Jack



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Tim

01-19-2002 18:21:09




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 Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to James, 01-19-2002 18:11:15  
Check the rules first. Would there be a class to pull in because of the turbo?



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James

01-19-2002 18:34:44




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Tim, 01-19-2002 18:21:09  
With a 4-71 I guess a turbo wouldn't be needed that much?



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James

01-19-2002 18:24:25




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 Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to Tim, 01-19-2002 18:21:09  
With a 4-71 I guess a turbo wouldn't be needed that much?



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FM...

01-19-2002 18:35:58




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 Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to James, 01-19-2002 18:24:25  
All detroit diesel two strokes use a turbo. They cannot run naturally Aspirated.



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SupC

01-19-2002 20:09:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to FM..., 01-19-2002 18:35:58  
Yes, Detroits will run without a turbo. The guy who was writing about the 671 vs. 671 T had it right. We've had several detroit powered skidders, knucklebooms, I even run a piece of equipment at work with a detroit in it. The blower is on the side(supercharger), and yes they do have to have that, but the turbo is on the manifold, and that can be an option.



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Jack in Fla

01-20-2002 09:31:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: repowering a 560? (long text) in reply to SupC, 01-19-2002 20:09:15  
All two cycle Detroits have a gear driven Blower on side of engine, won't work without it. IT also can have a exhaust driven turbo on it as a option for a little more hp out of same said engine

Jack



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