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fouling advice

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karl f

02-26-2007 21:26:51




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super M, stage 1. #1 cylinder fouls plug within an hour of operation. almost seems like it fouls after you shut down, then start it again.
tractor was purchased at auction a couple years ago. owner was supposedly a tractor mechanic and the tractor was supposed to have been overhauled within a few years of the sale. everything was clean enough to assume overhaul story was true.
it's definitely oil fouling on the plug, and strangely an oil spot has formed at the #2 plug area--looks like it's leakin out the plug but that plug looks dry and normal, probably a head gasket leak.
what characteristics of the 264 engine could cause the #1 to foul a plug other than a ring issue? the external leak near the #2 make the head gasket suspect. is there an oil passage in the head gasket in the 1, 2 area that could be fouling the #1 cyl?
oil pressure shows high 60s on newer IH gauge.
-karl f

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Randy S.E.-MN

02-28-2007 05:14:11




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to karl f, 02-26-2007 21:26:51  
One more thing...in my many years of slingin' wrench...back when we used to actually "overhaul" automotive engines, I found many a fouling cylinder caused by the ring gaps lining up. The piston rings are actually elliptical in shape and they do rotate in the bore with time and miles. If a ring stops rotating the eliptical shape is worn into the cylinder, as the other rings rotate, they will kinda "fall in" to that irregular wear and lessen if not line up the distance between the gaps. I have seen this especially on engines rebuilt by all the backyard bozos that think they know what they are doing, and don't place the rings properly on the piston during ressembly. On Diesel engines, this little phenomena will shoot the oil dipstick right out of the engine bay on compression. Kinda comical.

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georgeky

02-27-2007 15:42:21




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to karl f, 02-26-2007 21:26:51  
I put only new rings in my 1953 super c 12 years ago and it still runs like a top with no oil consumtion at all. It depends on condition of old sleeves. With a good hone and micrometer you will know whether sleeves can be reused or not. And I use my super c a lot to cultivate and mow hay all summer she is ran hard.



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Allan In NE

02-27-2007 08:18:46




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to karl f, 02-26-2007 21:26:51  
Hi Karl,

There are over hauls and then there are over hauls.

Anyone who goes in there, throws in a set of rings and uses the same pistons and sleeves over again has got to live with one eye on his wrist watch 'cause it just isn't going to last.

If it's pumping enough to foul a plug after just an hour's running time, think I'd pull 'er down and do it right.

Allan



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the Unforgiven

02-27-2007 11:12:31




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to Allan In NE, 02-27-2007 08:18:46  
I got this 560 that had a cracked head and was lightly stuck, got another head put together and planned on just new rings, and now your telling me it won't last?



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Allan In NE

02-27-2007 11:44:08




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to the Unforgiven, 02-27-2007 11:12:31  
Nope,

Not trying to be a Doubting Thomas or anything, but there is nothing worse than a junk-yard fix.

If you just replace the rings, you are only re-newing 1/4 of the wear surface. That tiny little outer edge of the ring that touches the sleeve wall. Now you've got a new surface wearing against an old surface.

The upper and lower land surfaces of the piston ring groove are still worn, the skirt is still worn, the wrist pin is still worn, the sleeve wall is still worn and odds are that the wall is wavy, egg-shaped, bell-mouthed and out-of-round anyway.

Rest of the story is that when you tighten up the top end, shortly there after the bottom end goes because it can't stand the extra pressure.

The deck is totally stacked against this kind of a repair. Do it right the first time and it will outlast both you and I put together. :>)

Now, in your case where you had a head crack and fail, I'd first check to see if there is any shake in the pistons and how much of a lip there is at the upper stroke of the ring.

Then if that area seems okay, I'd pull the pan and inspect the bearing inserts. If they are really, really in good shape, good and beefy and you feel that they are good to go, I'd just throw the head back on 'er and leave that cylinder area completely alone.

Simply putting a new set of rings in could make it worse than it was, not better.

Allan

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RustyFarmall

02-27-2007 11:17:53




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to the Unforgiven, 02-27-2007 11:12:31  
Do it right the first time and you'll never need to do it again.



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the Unforgiven

02-27-2007 11:36:36




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-27-2007 11:17:53  
Hey Rusty, just trying to bait Allen into a debate. I put in new rings and have used it ever since with no ill effects, no appreciable oil use, I don't even think it has had new spark plugs. Oh yeah, I did the ring job in the summer of '86.



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RustyFarmall

02-27-2007 13:38:09




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to the Unforgiven, 02-27-2007 11:36:36  
21 years on the same set of plugs tells me the tractor does not more than about 10 to 20 hours per year.



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I love farmalls

02-27-2007 06:48:19




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to karl f, 02-26-2007 21:26:51  
In the worst case , "but hope not" it could be a cracked ring. I had one in my 560.



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Janicholson

02-27-2007 06:08:35




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to karl f, 02-26-2007 21:26:51  
A worn valve guide will allow excessive consumption on one cyl. The other Ideas are possible as well. Stuck rings on one cylinder will also be similar. As often recommends, put an ounce of auto trans fluid in that cylinder for several days, then pull the plug out and spin the starter to clear the cylinder of excess oil. The ATF can assist tn the freeing of stuck rings. (it is cheap and non invasive) Running a hotter plug is OK if the engine is not used for continuous full power operation. They are a source of pre ignition in loaded operations at full operating temp. JimN

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charles in Tn

02-27-2007 01:06:52




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to karl f, 02-26-2007 21:26:51  
use a plug that is 1 or 2 heat ranges hotter for that cylinder, it might take take of the oil fouling.



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georgeky

02-26-2007 22:40:36




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to karl f, 02-26-2007 21:26:51  
karl your head may just need to be retorqued if it has loosened over time it could be leaking oil inside and out. This needs to be done in proper sequence to avoid warping head. The service manual will show the sequence. If not you could have a ring or gasket problem, but I would try retorqueing first.



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Ken B.

02-27-2007 01:56:14




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to georgeky, 02-26-2007 22:40:36  
I have a question on retorquing do you loosen all the head bolts then retorque or just go in and reretorque? Thanks Ken B



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teddy52food

02-27-2007 06:28:01




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to Ken B. , 02-27-2007 01:56:14  
Loosen them just enough to break them free. Do it one at a time in the order of torqueing.



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GordoSD

02-27-2007 04:47:09




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to Ken B. , 02-27-2007 01:56:14  
No need to loosen. Just torque in correct sequence. Engine should be as warm as it would be if sitting in sun on 90 degree summer day.

Gordo



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Janicholson

02-27-2007 06:36:42




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to GordoSD, 02-27-2007 04:47:09  
Gordo, I will (kindly) disagree. If a bolt has been in place for a while, it is likely to have enough "stickshon" that it will appear torqued. I break the bolts loose in the loose direction just barely enough to assure it is turning, then retorque. I find the additional turn of wrench to be from a few degrees, to 25 or 30 degrees at the wrench handle. One at a time, in sequence as described in the manual. I don't have data on how many appear to be tight when checked, I only know many take additional partial turns my way. JimN

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georgeky

02-26-2007 21:49:20




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to karl f, 02-26-2007 21:26:51  
karl are you sure it is oil. Sometimes when burning to rich they will also foul plugs. But it is usually no 2 or 3 so it may be oil.



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karl f

02-26-2007 22:04:29




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to georgeky, 02-26-2007 21:49:20  
definitely oil. that #1 plug is wet and oily with with a burt oily mess shorting the electrodes



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El Toro

02-27-2007 06:01:41




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 Re: fouling advice in reply to karl f, 02-26-2007 22:04:29  
I had that problem on a Ford Mustang engine on fouling the plugs. Put in new plugs and they were soon fouled. I borrowed a borescope light from work and looked into each sparkplug hole and 3 out of 6 cylinders were wet with oil in the combustion area. Heavy deposits of carbon were noticed too. I had bought this car used and it must have been driven on short runs.

I pulled the head and I had never seen so much carbon in a cylinder head. Pulled the pistons too
and all the rings and ring lans were packed with carbon. All the drain holes in the pistons were
plugged with carbon too. After doing a valve job and cleaning the pistons I installed new rings
and rod bearings and that fixed the problem. Hal

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