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A little OT: Freeze plugs?

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JayWalt

03-09-2007 13:29:31




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Well, as some of you know, i been swapping a tranny in my car. Found a softplug leaking behind the flywheel, which explains the coolant loss. I am kinda leery about using a metal one. Seems that they would be easy to drive in crooked and /or leak. The thing is, if it did leak it would require pulling the motor again, and that is not something i want to do again. I got a rubber compression type plug I plan to use (thses are designed as freeze plug replacements, not just something I picked up from lowes, altho those would probably work too), since it seems more of a secure seal. I will probably put a hair of blue loctite on the nut so there no chance of it coming loose. What are your opinions on this? The plug is thicker then the hole and it meant to form a ridge on the inside so there no chance of blowout. They are rated 50 psi.

I'm really not confident in the metal plug. If I had my way, it would be a tapped hole and use a pipe cap, but thats not the case. If it was a softplug on the side of the block, i would use the metal one, and if it leaked, it would be accessible to get the rubber one in there. I did a bit of research on the metal and rubber ones, complaints with both of them, so I'm at a loss. Whoever designed softplugs is an idiot. The holes are for sand casting. When water in the block freezes, it freezes in all directions and does not readily flow to the hole and blow the plug like some people think. Of course theres been cases where ice has blown the softplugs and people assumed they were to prevent blocks from cracking, but that is not the intent, they are for emptying the sand after casting. For "freeze plugs" to be effective, they would have to have them about every 2 inches of the water jacket. But I digress...

Your thoughts please

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JayWalt

03-09-2007 14:26:42




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to JayWalt, 03-09-2007 13:29:31  
maybe i didnt clarify what happened to the old one, it rusted through, very odd, just in a few select places. My concern is not the plug coming out, but moreso the edge that is supposed to seal. It just doenst seem like a very good system for sealing something. Mine is the cup style. I already got the rubber one in there, if it holds, it should hold for the next 5 years. If it doesnt, then I'm scrwed. Bad thing with the metal ones is that I cant be sure it wont leak. Yes I could emulate 15 pounds of pressure in the system and see if it leaks before I put the motor back in, but I cant emulate the proper temp or the expansion and contraction of the metals for a few thousands miles. Therein lies the concern.

If I had a tap that big, I'd probably tap the damn hole and put a plug in it, haha

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Ron in Nebr

03-09-2007 16:52:07




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to JayWalt, 03-09-2007 14:26:42  
While your rubber plug will work and probably still be there when you're done with the vehicle(I've used 'em myself at times), keep in mind that the metal cup plugs, while you say they "aren't a very good system for sealing something" are out there by the millions, doing their job. So they must not be all bad! I've replaced dozens of 'em with no trouble.

Properly installed, they won't leak until they rust out...and if ya put one new one in it's a sure bet that it'll most likely outlast all the rest of the original ones. An old soft plug laying in the water jacket isn't gonna prevent antifreeze from reaching the new one- that stuff can get through VERY small places!

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JayWalt

03-09-2007 17:21:11




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to Ron in Nebr, 03-09-2007 16:52:07  
Ron,
They are a good idea on a mass production, machine automated type scale. But I simply dont trust it with my level of experience with them.
Just assuming it wont leak is not good enough for me. Any little score or corrosion in the bore would make it hard for them to seal. Rubber is more forgiving. While I agree there are millions of them out there, there is also millions of other half *** engineered things out there.

Like I said, if the plug was readily accessible, I'd for sure give it a try, I'd like some experience with them, but given the circumstances, the rubber one is a more sure thing. While it's longevity is in question, mind you this car has 240,000 miles on it, so I dont expect to get maybe another 30 or so out of it and I'd be happy.

I do appreciate the input.

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Ron in Nebr

03-09-2007 22:29:49




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to JayWalt, 03-09-2007 17:21:11  
Jay, it's your engine and if the rubber plug is what you're comfortable with, and like ya said you don't expect to have it for another 100K miles, no problem. If it works, it works.

Since you've already installed the rubber one, it's all a moot point now anyway, but just wanted to point out for others in the future that in my experience, the rubber ones were intended to be used, like Allan said, as an "emergency" fix, kinda like those clamp on battery terminal cable ends, in places like behind a motor mount where there's no room to drive a steel one in. Beings you have your transmission out and I assume the flexplate off, just figured it'd be super-easy to install a steel one there. Even if you weren't comfortable putting it in I bet some local mechanic would have come pounded it in there in exchange for a cold beer...

Your point about corrosion/scores in the hole is good, but we'd always just run a bit of scotchbrite around in the hole on our finger and never once have had a problem. If a person was especially concerned about this, the brass ones would be even better- they'd conform to minor irregularities in the hole. Plus they'd never rust out.

The steel ones aren't only doing their job in mass-produced engines, there's hundreds of thousands of 'em out there in rebuilt engines that work just fine too. Not an engineering flaw, just the lowest-cost, simplest, way of doing something effectively.

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Allan In NE

03-09-2007 16:58:49




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to Ron in Nebr, 03-09-2007 16:52:07  
I agree.

Rubber plugs may be okay in an emergency, but as a permanent repair would be kind of a shoddy bit of wrench turnin' in my view.

Allan



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JayWalt

03-09-2007 14:33:13




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to JayWalt, 03-09-2007 14:26:42  
one more thing, this engine has been out of the car before, not sure if it was a swap. I did find another freeze plug in the water jacket just now and got it out. Its a common, but not ethical practice to just punch them in and leave them in there. I bet the first one started leaking, it doesnt look rusted through, but the first one caused a buildup of crap and thats probably what kept the rust inhibitors away from the newest plug and caused it to rot. Not sure if the motor was pulled because of this or what, but its obvious it was pulled, as the re is a few things not properly bolted dont, like one of the coolant lines gets braced to one of the tranny to engine bolts, and it wasnt connected, one of the torque convertor to flexplate bolts was loose.

Getting her all put back together properly. This is a prime example of why I dont like working on cars. Disaster lies in one little thing going wrong (this stupid hole leaking). It's why I never overhauled an engine. I would rebuild my tractor engine tho (p/s job and replacing mains bearings if crank was in spec), seems pretty straightfoward for the most part.

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El Toro

03-09-2007 14:10:26




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to JayWalt, 03-09-2007 13:29:31  
One thing that causes these metal freeze plugs to fail is the antifreeze losing the rust inhibitor.
Hal



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El Toro

03-09-2007 14:03:51




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to JayWalt, 03-09-2007 13:29:31  
I used those neophrene plugs years ago on cars and trucks. I had a hard time reaching some of those metal freeze plugs to be able to smack them with a hammer. That's why I used the others and you could tighten them with a wrench. I never used any sealant on them. Hal



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Bob

03-09-2007 13:57:45




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to JayWalt, 03-09-2007 13:29:31  
With good coolant a new plug should be good for 10 years or more and a couple of hundred thousand miles.

Is the plug you are replacing "flat" or a "cup-type" plug? NO WAY will either come out under normal use if properly.

If you REALLY figure the new plug will rust out pay a little more and get a BRASS plug. They are readily avaiable.



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Gauger

03-09-2007 13:57:29




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to JayWalt, 03-09-2007 13:29:31  
I've done a few in the last few years, most recently over Christmas on my wife's Camry. I've always used the metal ones with no problems. I don't trust anything that seems like a shortcut although I believe the soft plug system is a better fix than, for instance, a two piece CV joint boot. I clean everything real good, use #2 Permatex and tap the new plug in with a deep socket of the proper size so that it just fits into the recessed end of the plug. My complaint is that the originals rot out in the first place. They should be made of a material that is good for the life of the engine.

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Dave BN

03-09-2007 13:48:47




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to JayWalt, 03-09-2007 13:29:31  
I have never used the rubber ones. My thinking is that the will get old and crack like a radiator hose,heater hose etc. If you use the rubber one let us know how well they lasted in 10 - 15 years. Dave.



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JayWalt

03-09-2007 14:21:07




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 Re: A little OT: Freeze plugs? in reply to Dave BN, 03-09-2007 13:48:47  
i dont think this car will last another 5 much less 10 or 15 years, hahaha



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