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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2

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jason r

10-13-2003 17:04:08




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i am looking at a 1944 m. i am wondering if there was ever a time when ih sent out tractors from the factory without tags? the bellhousing has no holes drilled in it to indicate a tag was there. the 3's on the engine show it is a 44 i have never heard of this ever and was wondering if there was such a 'black market' tractor




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Hugh MacKay

10-14-2003 14:19:42




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 Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-13-2003 17:04:08  
TO ALL: Don't be too quick to put this man down. The key to this story may lie at the Canada-US border. Remember Canada was in this war from day one in 1939. Massey Harris and Cockshutt in Canada had to immediately turn their plants to building war machinery. I was only born in 1942 so don't know the full story. However I can tell you this. I have heard stories of dealers here in Canada sending trucks to the US to pick up IH and JD tractors. In many parts of Canada you go to a farm auction and all the pre war equipment on that farm will be Massey or Cockshutt. Post war equipment will be IH, JD, Case, AC, etc. Those companies made big inroads here during the war. My home farm was a clear example of this. Every pre war implement was Massey or Cockshutt. Starting in 1942 my dad bought a new W4, No.8 Little Genius plow and a McCormick side delivery rake on rubber. This was a tractor rake with a steel tractor hitch. The W4 had to come on steel, rubber was not available until after the war. My dad did not get his wheels and rubber tires until 1946.

As a boy I remember stories of those truck loads of tractors having to cross border at specific places. There definately was a black market of US built tractors into Canada. How extensive and who was involved I can't tell you, as I don't know. In the past two decades the Canadian dollar being in the 60-70 cent range US, many of those tractors have gone back to the US. Just yesterday about 35 miles from the US border I had a Texas 1 ton dually and lowboy pass me on the 4 lane, with two of these tractors on board. I was doing 70 mph and at the rate he went by me he is probably near home by now.

Cockshutt had always sold Oliver tractors painted Cockshutt colors here in Canada. Their new Cockshutt 30 complete with Independant PTO had to be put on hold until after the war. The first one was produced in 1946.

Over the years I have asked a lot of questions on this very subject. 40 years ago there were a lot of tight liped people on the subject. I suspect there are a few people still around who know the full story. We do know most of the players are gone. I would love to hear the rest of the story, may be a good one for Paul Harvey.

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George Willer

10-14-2003 14:50:56




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 Re: Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to Hugh MacKay, 10-14-2003 14:19:42  
Hugh,

There is also another explanation based on this side of the border. With price controls and rationing caused by the war, the supply of everything was short. What was available was subject to waiting lists and quotas. As a result, many put their name on all the waiting lists for things they didn't even want. When their name came up, it was like winning the lottery. You could take possession of the item at whatever the price was set at. Then you could remove serial numbers and other identifying marks and sell the item as used at whatever price it would bring. This black market continued for a few years after the war while the supply was catching up with demand.

None of the fine people on this list would have done such a thing...but it is history.

We weren't involved at all...we farmed with mules and an old worn out John Deere GP.

George Willer

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Hugh MacKay

10-14-2003 17:08:30




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 Re: Re: Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during in reply to George Willer, 10-14-2003 14:50:56  
George: I remember hearing of rationing on this side of the border as well. Everyone in Canada had to apply for tickets to buy gasoline with. Farmers could get all the tickets they wanted. I can well remember my dad and grandad talking about the flow of people to the farm willing to do most anything fot gasoline tickets. Farmers and especially farmers near populated urban areas made big money on this one. Eventually a ceiling was put on farmers, my dad said for all but the politiaclly well connected.

My dad was 31 and working for the Canadian National Railway on double tracking the line from Halifax to Montreal, and when the war broke out that project was put in high gear for troop and supply movement to the port of Halifax. Dad said he tried to enlist, they told him he was too old. He figured the real reason was his position with the railroad, plus his ties to farm. When the railroad project ended he went back to the farm full time. He had been lucky enough to have worked every day of the dirty thirties, so in 1935 he had bought a new 35 Ford coup, flat head V8. He said he had to return to the farm to get enough tickets to keep the Ford running. He often said not many 26 year old guys were lucky enough to have the cash for a new Ford coup in 1935. I don't remember the car but I guess it was a hot little buggie on performance.

Probably the Ford is why he never married until he was 32 in 1940. I being the oldest of 5 boys arrived on the sceen same year as the W4, 1942. My grandad had farmed with a Fordson and a team of horses. Dad said he may as well just used the horses, as they wouldn't have had to tow start the Fordson.

The first I remember of the W4 and the No.8 Little Genius was after he got the rubber tires. He did custom plowing for other farmers. I can remember going with my grandad to pick dad up at end of days plowing.

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Bill B

10-14-2003 14:14:25




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 Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-13-2003 17:04:08  
I looked at a 39 last week, and it had a tag. I bet the bell housing was changed.



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RPM

10-14-2003 09:32:04




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 Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-13-2003 17:04:08  
I have heard stories about black market tractors sold during WW2, the serial plate was chiseled off or so the tale goes, working at a dealership since 1960 have never seen a M without so it was probably a rumor or old wives tale.



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Harold H

10-14-2003 07:02:30




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 Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-13-2003 17:04:08  
Must be a replacement bellhousing from the parts department. All production M's, except a few at the very beginning of production, had a serial number tag from the factory.

Harold H



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jason r

10-14-2003 06:11:51




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 Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-13-2003 17:04:08  
thanks for the feedback. the tractor is pretty straight and it has #'s on the engine. i suppose i could get a replacement tag or would that take away from the tractor. do you know if ih stopped production and sold tractors under the table????



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CNKS

10-14-2003 12:38:23




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 Re: Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-14-2003 06:11:51  
Why would they sell them under the table when they could sell everything they produced off the top? Particularly during the war years. Are you saying that some German, or Japanese person (whom we were at war with), would pay more for them?



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NDS

10-14-2003 05:27:11




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 Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-13-2003 17:04:08  
Had a 1944 M SN 80452 and it had serial number plate.



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Dave BN

10-13-2003 18:08:02




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 Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-13-2003 17:04:08  
My BN was built in 1944 and has a sn tag. And I have seen lots of other WW2 era tractors with tags. Dave.



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Nebraska Cowman

10-13-2003 17:34:36




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 Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-13-2003 17:04:08  
another thought is the bell housing might have been broken and replaced.



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justin

10-13-2003 17:13:37




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 Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to jason r, 10-13-2003 17:04:08  
The early H and Ms did not have serial tags on the bellhousings. Instead the serial number was only stamped on the engine and on the mag/distributor side framerail. From what I have seen, this ended at approx S/n 1000 for the H and approx S/n 750 for the M.



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Andy Martin

10-13-2003 19:55:21




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 Re: Re: farmall not putting sn# tags on during ww2 in reply to justin, 10-13-2003 17:13:37  
Which was before the war.



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