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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Need Red Power for a Cutditioner

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Wayne M Kittler

01-25-2004 16:06:14




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My need is to handle a New idea 7'cutditioner. I can use the 574 gas but it overheats after a while. Would an M run it all day or should I look for a 706 or other 300 cu diesel ?




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Hugh MacKay

01-27-2004 03:37:32




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
Wayne: This has been a bit of a hornets nest. No question, too bad your 574 isn't diesel. Fuel economy much bigger issue than when the 574 was built. Those 574 and 584 tractors were the mower conditioner and baler tractors of choice of a lot of North American farmers. They were short wheelbase, very manuverable, lots of clearence, a perfect haying tractor. Remember haying has never been a big hp job, big man power is order of the day.

On the Cutditioner, I would tend too get rid of this before the tractor. Years ago I looked at these as well as the rotary sythe. What I saw was just too many valuable leaves on the ground that no rake or baler would ever recover. Yes that hay from the Cutditioner probably does dry faster with a percentage of the leaves gone. Haying should be a gentle process on the product, and every effort should be made to recover all the leaves. Those leaves are where the profit lies in feeding livestock.

I used 9 foot New Holland haybine for years. And although the NH is a good machine the writing of their manuals from the 60s 70s and 80s was excellent. Every NH machine in those manuals had an excellent trouble shooting section A NH haybine with a properly adjusted reel will cut hay just as close to ground as any flail, and do it a whole lot faster. Believe me also, I've seen a lot of improperly adjusted haybines operating. Very few people take the time to really understand the manual.

The other factor I see in the past 20 years is very poor tillage practices have caused land to become rough. These guys are buying flail mowers and dicsbines, because that is what they need to level the land. If they are using these machines to level land it's no wonder they need big horse power. My dad always said," If you could drive a Ford or Chevy sedan from the 60s across your hayfield at 40 to 60 mph then your field is smooth." Once upon a time you could do that on almost every hayfield in country side, not anymore.

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d.wilcox

01-26-2004 15:04:03




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
I have seen tractors overheat because they have been loaded past their limits. A 574 at 52 HP is loaded past its limits on a New Idea Cutditioner . I think the problem is People don't understand The difference between a New Idea Cutditioner and a Mower Conditioner. New Holland , Hesston, Gehl, Massey, Etc. never made a Cutditioner. These brands are all Mower Conditioners. They have a Reel to sweep the Hay into the Sicklebar which cuts the hay, which then goes to the rolls which condition the hay to promote faster drying. A New Idea Cutditioner Has wide flails which cut the hay, and condition the hay at the same time . Also good for picking up down hay, and leveling woodchuck holes at
the same time. The N I C, takes a lot more power than a mower conditioner. The newer Disc bines also take a lot more power than an older mower conditioner. and don't work as well for leveling woodchuck holes though they do pick up downed hay quite well. MY LAST POST ON THIS SUBJECT GOODNITE Mrs, Calabash wherever you are.

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Bob

01-26-2004 17:09:47




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 Re: Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to d.wilcox, 01-26-2004 15:04:03  
If it takes an 80 hp International to run a 7' New Idea Cutditioner, I will stick with my 50 hp Massey!



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Hugh MacKay

01-26-2004 17:43:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Bob, 01-26-2004 17:09:47  
Bob: That should humble them.



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Hugh MacKay

01-26-2004 15:48:31




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 Re: Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to d.wilcox, 01-26-2004 15:04:03  
wilcox: Bull feathers on your opinions re tractors engines heating, Any tractor that over heats has cooling problems, or major engine problems.

I also know what a Cutditioner is, for the most part they were a peice of junk that took far more hp than was needed to do the job. You might call it conditioning, I call it thrashing valuable leaves off the hay. We also tried Mathews Rotary Sythe, 10 footers, they took 50 hp no more, and thrashed as many leaves. Personally I want all those leaves in the bale, and long stem hay will put more leaves in the bale than any other practice. Now if you can design a machine to leave some of the stem in the field, I will buy that.

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Paul

01-26-2004 07:25:30




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
We now have 4 of these mowers. They are hard to mow with but it dryes the hay in a hurry, we had a haybine and sold it because it took too long to dry and it wouldn't cut down hay too well. But as for power we run 656D's on them and it will take all it has to run it. You have to watch the temp gauge in thick hay because you can heat it up in a hurry, and dull baldes will really suck the HP. You better look for a 706 to run it. The neighbor has a 706 that he runs his with and it does a good job.

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TP from Central PA

01-26-2004 06:16:00




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
I have used Flail mowers in the past and have also seen Cut-ditioners at work..... ....They take ALOT of power to operate. A cranked up M through 450 may run one, but I wouldn't want nothing short of a 706 with a D-310 Diesel on the opposite end of the PTO shaft..... ...



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Kelly C

01-26-2004 05:06:29




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
Now that sound just like my kind of reasoning.
Why spend $1,000 for a used haybine that will run on the tractor you all ready have. When you can spend $4500 on a 706!!!!! Any reason to NEED a new tractor is a good one in my book.



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Dave, Sherburne, NY

01-25-2004 19:44:04




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
MODEL Drawbar HP PTO Hp 806 86 94 706 67 72 Super M 41 42 M 24 34 300 27 34 574 45 52 MF65 46 from memory used to have 1 Figures from Tractor Data.Com

574 probrobly overheats because of hp. lack 806 maybe a little much.

Your Money your decision

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Hugh MacKay

01-26-2004 03:22:26




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 Re: Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Dave, Sherburne, NY, 01-25-2004 19:44:04  
Dave: I have never seen a tractor over heat from heavy load. There is always another reason for the over heating. I have had tractors work around the clock for as long as 5 days at a time, and yes loaded right to the limit.



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Brian in MO

01-25-2004 19:28:16




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
We have a 7' Heston and Hugh is right I have ran it with my 300 it can pull it a little in really heavy hay but no problems handling it. Brian



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Hugh MacKay

01-25-2004 18:59:11




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
Wayne: Listen to Michael and Bob, the rest need more power because they like more power. A Farmall 300 will run one if it is sharp.



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Bob

01-25-2004 17:52:13




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
My Massey 65 diesel runs my 7' cutditioner just fine, as long as the flails are sharp.



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Dave, Sherburne, NY

01-25-2004 17:12:43




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
Big difference in power requirements between a New Idea Cutditioner and a haybine, the New Idea cuts with 6 or 7" flails on a reel, great for picking up down hay, and takes a lot of power . M will be fine for moving it around the yard , but not enough power to run it. It's going to work a 560 hard .Go for the 706. or maybe an 806.



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mike

01-25-2004 17:09:38




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
Are you talking about the New Idea cutditioners that use flails? If you are, and you have thick grass you will need more power than an M to be happy. Our 656 gas loads down pretty good when pulling through thick grass.



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jim in ny

01-25-2004 16:23:51




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
You must like buying gas.I'd look for a 4 or560d or a 706 would more than run it. on alot less fuel too!



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Michael Soldan

01-25-2004 16:17:57




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 Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Wayne M Kittler, 01-25-2004 16:06:14  
Wayne, an M will run it all day. I run a 9.5' Massey Ferguson haybine with a 584 and it plays with it. Your 574 is ideal for that cutditioner..why the heating up? I'd get to the bottom of that as it should be right for what you are doing..... .good luck from Mike in Exeter Ontario



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JB

01-25-2004 19:20:45




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 Re: Re: Need Red Power for a Cutditioner in reply to Michael Soldan, 01-25-2004 16:17:57  
Hi Wayne, my dad used a 454D to drive his 7ft. New Idea cutditioner. He normally would run in 2nd gear but if it was really heavy hay would require 1st gear. His 454D was rated at 40 HP but he had the pump turned up to over 50 HP. You 574 gas should be around 50 HP but if it over heats, I would suspect cooling system problems or timing is to slow.
My dad only kept the cutditioner for about 4 years and traded for a NH haybine. The haybine required about 1/4 the HP and you could cut in 4th gear. The drying time of the hay was about the same but the cuditioner was better at picking up downed hay. But by jambing a 2x4 between the roller stops on the NH, it could be used to swath grain.

My 2 cents
JB

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