Cracked Block, Continued

Hi All,

Please hang with me on this, 'cause I'm trying to make a point.

A few days ago, I made the statement to Cubby that freezing damage to an engine comes during the thaw and not during the freezing process. I also added that this happens with frozen water pipes as well.

Well Boy!! The flack I got over that one!!! You would have thought that I was on the loose from the local nut house!

Cat calls, hoots, hollers, and the rotten tomatoes were a flyin'. Everybody thinks I'm crazy. :>) Well shucks, everybody knows that water freezing swells and breaks the pipes, right?

One gentleman suggested that I take an unopened can of soda and freeze it in the freezer and observe the results. Then, at that point, if I had the gonads and the courage to show my stupid face here on this forum again, to please report back and relate my findings. Also, I’m quite certain that he is of the opinion that I indeed have an IQ equal to that of a lead pencil.

I decided to take him up on his challenge....I put a Coke in the freezer and froze it for two solid days....

All it did was freeze of course, but there was no way of showing the results in a picture, because I could not prove that the Coke was actually frozen (visually--can't see thru a can).

So, I go to the grocery store yesterday, get a jar of dill pickles and a bottle of V8 juice packaged in glass containers. If freezing causes damage, it darned sure ought to break these glass containers.

At this point, my wife is unsure of my mental state as well and tells me to take my little toys outside and play, ‘cause she is kinda of the same opinion as the rest of the boys and thinks she will have to clean up a mess. :>) Silly girl.

I left these three items outside in freezing temperatures for 17 hours last night. They are frozen solid (notice the upper level of the V8 juice in the glass jar: it is now standing vertical. I laid the jars on their side for the purpose of this picture).

My point is that there is absolutely no structural damage whatsoever due to the freezing process. None. Nada. Zip.

The fact is, I can take that frozen pop can and shake it and hear the ice clunking around inside. It did not “swell” or “expand” as my northern friend suggested it would. It just doesn’t happen.

Freeze damage comes during the thawing process.

Rant over,

Allan

Heck, I don't know...we've already pretty well established the fact that I'm the resident dummy on this issue.

But, what gets me is that a Coke off the shelf has pressure against the inside of the container; you can feel it. Throw it in the freezer for a couple of days and there is no pressure...it just feels like a tin can with that chunk of ice rattling around inside.

And why will it rupture in one instance and not all the time?

Jim tells me that I'm not really freezing the Coke, and maybe he is right. I just assumed that after around 40 hours in a deep freeze it should be frozen by that time and it sure seemed frozen to me.

'Spose it has something to do with the CO2 working against that vacumm packing process?

I dunno, ya got me.

Allan

Maybe you're on to something now! You could use Coke for coolant. Problem is to keep the CO-2 from escaping. Another problem... now you have Jonsey all screwed up too. He thinks ice is denser than water!

BTW, I thought water was at its' greatest density at around 39 degrees. Anybody but Allan or Jonsey know for sure?

George Willer

George Willer

Aw, this has been great!!

Thanks Guys, we are all in total agreement now. We have a 100% consensus.

Yes, it is certainly true, I have been breathin' far too many paint fumes as of late. :>)

But, I would ask you this. Where else but here, in the coldest, deepest dredges of winter could one find a lengthy discussion on the merits ice?

The downside (other than my completely wacko way of thinking) is that I don't think 'ole Dakota Jim likes me very much. :>)

Thanks Fellas,

Allan

Naw, I said that remark 'tounge in cheek'. I was just kiddin' around with him.

Thanks for the reply,

Allan

The posts are running about 15 to zero in opposition to your theory with a couple of undecideds. You must be greatly perplexed. Here's a little tip for you--if you had frozen the can solid you would hear no rattling inside. It's not surprising it did not burst yet.

Now lets get it right this time! No screw ups! No slush! No "rattling". I propose that you ease your racing mind with the following controlled experiment. Find one of those 2 gallon or so containers and fill it with some sticky sugar water...some powerful vinegar, or water containing something along the lines of fish entrails should be an acceptable substitute. Fill it to the top...now stay with me here Al...make sure you get it to the TOP so you have no room for confusion on this point with regard to expansion. SEAL the top. Place it in the freezer and leave it for what will probably take a couple of solid days. It has to be SOLIDLY frozen. None of those half measures you were jubulantly proclaiming as vindication last time.

The next step will be to loudly and agressively advise all your coworkers, friends and fellow brain surgeons of your experiment. Don't let them talk you out of it! After all, you are quite confident in your chances of success! Laugh gleefully and loudly with the assurance that you will have proof positive this time and will be able to confidently "prove" you were right. Advise your coworkers that those who believe that water expands as it freezes are crazy. Make sure everyone you know, is aware of your experiment, your expected results and your confidence in success, particularily such noteworthies as your employer will be particualy interested in your scientific pursuits.

I should mention a word of caution at this point...you had better wear a pair of safety glasses-a face shield would be better and gloves and advise your wife not to open the freezer door in case it should happen to break at just that moment. The force generated will be quite substantial and I don't want to see anyone get hurt. I have seen a picture of a glass salt shaker photographed just as it burst in just such an experiment and the effects were explosive. In good conscience I have to hope you won't be so foolish as to use glass.

At this point, observe the results, proceed to clean up the mess, and sadder but wiser report back your findings to this board.

George Willer

As I recall, to be bouyant an body has to displace a volume of water that equals its own weight. Any 'extra' volume is carried above the water. A cork is much less dense than the water so it floats higher than a block of green oak. Iron can't displace enough water to equal its weight and sinks.

The planet does seem to be getting warmer, but we are not so clever by half to be able to say why. In any case, it will probably raise cain for farmers.

You didn't really get any flack... just surprise anyone could actually believe such nonsense.

I once had a book that someone wrote to convince the whole world that pi was really 3. That's without any decimal. The ENTIRE book was written to explain what he thought about it, and he couldn't understand why everyone else was so confused. Here's your chance to become an author! I'll bet there aren't any books explaining your idea.

George Willer

I see from your picture that you do not have any snow on the ground. I am guessing that your experience with freezing temperatures may be somewhat limited or even second hand. But you do not have to trust us on this one. Go to your public library and pick up the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. Look in the index for Thermal Expansivity, water, ordinary, -20C to 150C (pages F5-6 in the 61st edition). You will see that the density is highest at 4C (about 40F). At these kind of temperatures and speeds mass, density, and volune are related by the equation d=m/v. If the density decreases and the mass stays the same, the volume increases.

Don't your ice cubes get a little bump in the middle ?

Scientific discovery aside, your posting cracked me up! Thanks for giving me a good chuckle.

- David

I can remember several times that the milk froze, pushing the cardboard lid out and the milk would expand into a column of about 2 or 3 inches high and the diameter of the jug opening. Kinda of a neat thing to a kid to see this column of milk sticking out the top of the jug.
Later on, the farmer started putting the milk in jugs with a lid that screwed on tight………I always thought that he didn’t know what he was doing because the jugs froze and busted then.
In the first case above, the cardboard stopper moved and allowed the pressure of the freezing milk to escape, in the second case, the glass of the jug gave.
I might point out that in neither case did the temperature ever get above freezing.
As for the heat produced by this freezing process, it was very readily felt on the seat of my pants when my father got home from work and discovered I had let the milk freeze and the jugs break!

The cans left in the vehicle, which has not been started, or warmed up in any way, split and blew pop all over. The outside temperature has barely gone above zero, and certainly no where near the thawing point.

Last winter, in -20 temperatures, the furnace failed in my farmhouse (where no one lives). It was out for about 2 days, and several pipes were burst open when I got there, and the toilet was hanging sideways from the supply line due to the water in the bowl freezing and splitting the china base. No thawing involved here, either.

I have always been taught that water expands when it freezes due to the crystal lattice structures of which the ice is formed occuping more space than the liquid form of water.

The theory behind the crystal lattice structure is backed up by the fact that a chunk of ice will float in water. The ice is less dense than the water because the crystal lattice structure of the ice makes a given mass of water occupy more space in the frozen state than it does in the liquid state.

Are you saying this is not true?

Tim