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What to do about overheating?

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SAm in NS

03-11-2004 13:24:26




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I've had my rad recored (on a Super A) and although it no longer leaks it also fails to keep the tractor cool. If I go any thing above 1/4 throttle or apply a serious continous load then it'll overheat on me. When it was recored they replaced the origional core with one that has twice as many tubes of half the size. The rad shop says they can't get anything better than that. I would like to get this fixed so I can properly use the tractor without wasting too much more money. I'm beginning to think I could've bought a lot of antifreeze for what this has cost me so far. Any good ideas on what I can do to keep it cool? Thanks, SAm in NS

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SAm in NS

03-12-2004 14:19:09




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Is there any point in rebuilding an old pump and if not why not? Thanks, SAm in NS



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Hugh MacKay

03-12-2004 06:53:37




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Sam: I have read all of this thread. I think you should explore more fully what Paul has said. If large tube cores are still available, that is indeed what you should have had. You probably have good grounds to ask the rad rebuilder to make the recore right. It would be worth a twist. If as Paul states original type core is still available, this guy did not rebuild what was brought to him.

You probably will not have a lot of success, unless you put a lawyer on his tail. That one will cost you more than a new water pump, and your rebuilder knows that. So if you want to make a deal with Mike, I can see that it gets to you very very reasonable. I personally would take the new one as the difference is just the cost of a kit. Keep me posted.

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SAm in NS

03-12-2004 08:04:14




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 Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-12-2004 06:53:37  
Okay, first off thanks for all of the responses. I think what I'm going to do is as follows. First of all I'll get my dad to have a look at it and see what he thinks. Then I'll try a pressure cap (I can borrow one from a Super C that I know works). If neither of the above works then I'll talk to the chap at the rad shop again and tell him that cores are available for these and see if I can get it recored properly. If I can't get recored properly (for whatever reason) then I'll get the water pump. If the new pumps are considered to be decent quality then I'll get one, does anyone know where they are made? If I add the water pump then I'll need a thermostat so can anyone tell me what type and range of thermostat I need? One way or the other I'll have to take the rad off and when I do so I'll double check for any blockages including inside the block. Any other suggestions? Thanks, SAm in NS

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Hugh MacKay

03-12-2004 16:19:33




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 Re: Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-12-2004 08:04:14  
Sam: Send me an E mail, I seem to have your address wrong.



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Michael Soldan

03-12-2004 05:46:34




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
SAm, I called Steve at Ontario Used Tractor Parts and he has a used water pump for an A/SA for $40. He has new ones @$142.50. He will gladly sell you either , but recommends new in this case as used that have been shelved tend to dry out and leak after sometime and may require rebuilding..but may be okay. He says you remove the bottom hose and there is a two bolt flange which comes off and the pump bolts up there and you sling the belt over the pulley..a fairly simple proceedure, he will mail parts ASAP..that's the scoop, almost forgot , he didn't have any decent rads in stock. This is just an option for you, you can decide and let me know if you want a pump...Hugh has a relative going down East, we can send with him or mail, you may be able to find something closer to home, if not will be glad to help...Mike in Exeter Ontario

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Paul

03-12-2004 01:56:20




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Sam try a new rad cap before you do anything have seen this help. As far as small tubes being the only ones on the market not true as I'm a rad man and have recored many with 3/4 in tubes yuo may have 3/8 or 1/4 and it take pressure to push the coolant threw them.Take your hoses off and put your hand over bottom neck fill with water then remove your hand see how fast the water comes out maybe the tubes ar soldered half shut

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42FarmallH

03-11-2004 19:03:36




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Have to agree, the smaller tubes won't allow the thermosiphon to work properly... Spend $75 and get yourself the water pump kit - shouldn't have any more trouble...



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Hugh MacKay

03-11-2004 18:51:51




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Sam: When I responded to Bob, maybe I was a bit rough on rad men. However the rad man should have known what that rad was and either advised you of the change he would have to make in the new core, before he so freely spent your money. I have a gut feeling he is probably correct, in that you can't buy that core with large tubes anymore.

I don't think Michael's solution is in your best interests. First I'm not going to NS and secondly your a college student and you just cant throw away that $300. to $400. investment you have in a new rad.

I think you should first do as Mark suggested and check out the head and or head gasket. I would also check out and find a good water pump. Perhaps that is what Mike should check out for you. I'll do a bit of checking in the family tree, see who's heading east soon. I know I have a cousin going about May 1st. I wouldn't worry too much about a thermostat. There are inline thermostats you can put in upper hose. I think one item we all have to realize is that sooner or later these old thermosyphon tractors will require water pumps.

That is another subject and has a number of reasons, first and foremost, Corperate America that make huge profits building $25,000. lawn tractors off shore want all A, SA, 8N, Fergies, etc. going to the crusher. They've never been satisfied with half a loaf.

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Andy Martin

03-11-2004 19:06:35




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 Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-11-2004 18:51:51  
Hugh, I'm a die hard maybe, but I love to use a thermosyphon tractor and will fix one before I put a water pump on it, and maybe still have the same problem. I say maybe because I've never put a water pump retrofit on. I suspect many guys who have put on a water pump have had to go ahead and fix their problem unless it was just a nominally plugged block.

I've got several that will pull a good load in 104F (40C) heat with just an occasional burp to let you know it is healthy.

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Hugh MacKay

03-11-2004 19:50:54




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 Re: Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to Andy Martin, 03-11-2004 19:06:35  
Andy: I know and agree with what you are saying. My Super A is still thermosyphon and I don't intend on changing until absolutely forced to do so. However I think guys in most of this thread are correct in assuming Sam's recored tractor rad with twice as many small cores may not work as thermosyphon. Some are suggesting he go into the engine, however the engine was working perfect with the old rad, it just leaked and in discussions last fall with Sam, I know the old rad had some cores blocked off from fixing leaks. There exists a possibility that some of those leak periods last fall could have caused heating and thus his head gasket is gone. I have a feeling from discussions with Sam heating has never occured.

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Andy Martin

03-11-2004 18:30:21




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Maybe I missed it, but did the tractor cool OK (but with leaks) before the recore, or did you resore it to get it running?



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SAm in NS

03-11-2004 18:48:48




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 Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to Andy Martin, 03-11-2004 18:30:21  
It cooled okay before. I didn't run it a lot but I did plough a garden 50'x50' in the middle of the summer and a friend of mine ripped up some sod (with the plough) with it while improving the drainage in his back yard near the same time. It was near 25 Celsius then and it didn't give me even so much as the slightest problem. I have had various things apart since then but I don't think that's my problem. Thanks, SAm in NS

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Andy Martin

03-11-2004 19:14:18




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 Re: Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 18:48:48  
That should pretty much narrow it down to the small cores restricting the thermosyphon flow.

So if you can't find a good used core, you may need to put a water pump on it.



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gene b

03-11-2004 18:11:06




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Too bad you didnt ask first but i would bet that the passages at the bottom in the block are stopped up with crud. Remove the rad and the lower housing then with air pressure and water and maybe a piece of stiff wire you can get the crud out. You can see them with a strong lite. Use a long piece of copper tube on your blow gun and by bending the end you can get most of it out. Have found this many times in the last few yrs as i have rebuilt several engines in the last few yrs some are realy filled up with crud in that area. Have even seen them all blocked solid when removing the sleeves. Toobad as several guys have spent the money on recoring the rad when it didnt need it.

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SAm in NS

03-11-2004 18:43:52




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 Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to gene b, 03-11-2004 18:11:06  
Well I should clarify a little. The rad needed recoring as the tractor had been accidentaly driven into a woodpile the summer before I bought it. I effected a temporary repair which lasted about a year, did it again, another year and finally decided to get it "fixed properly". It didn't do this before recoring the rad and I have flushed out the block before. Also I'm getting plenty of heat at the top of the rad, just not enough going down into it. Thanks, SAm in NS

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Mark

03-11-2004 17:52:16




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Sure you don't have a cracked head or blown headgasket? If it heats up at 1/4 throttle,I don't think the recore job is its only problem.



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Michael Soldan

03-11-2004 16:03:55




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
SAm, sounds like you got a recore that is causing the trouble. Do you want me to check for a used rad for you? Ontario Used Tractor Parts may have one, there are two other wreckers within a half hour of me..if you're stuck I don't mind making a few phone calls..... .....and we'll send Hugh down with it!....Mike in Exeter Ontario



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SAm in NS

03-11-2004 17:38:29




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 Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to Michael Soldan, 03-11-2004 16:03:55  
Well if you don't mind finding out if there's something available that would be much appreciated. At the moment I want to try and find out what my options are. Thanks, SAm in NS



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riverbend

03-11-2004 16:02:07




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Bob's right, the boundry layer affects more of the flow in a small tube. Isn't there any radiator core material that has large tubes - big trucks, refrigeration, etc. ?



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SAm in NS

03-11-2004 17:32:49




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 Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to riverbend, 03-11-2004 16:02:07  
The guy at the shop told me the only stuff he can get that has tubes close to the size of the old ones is steel cores for log skidders. For one reason or another he was pretty sure these wouldn't work. Thanks, SAm in NS



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riverbend

03-11-2004 17:44:11




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 Re: Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 17:32:49  
part 2

Your radiator man is also correct when he says that more small tubes will transfer heat better (more surface are per unit volume). Except when you have low flow, the heat transfer is also low. Up here, we know it as 'wind chill'. 15 and sunny can be pretty warm when there is no wind.



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Bob M

03-11-2004 13:55:43




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 Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 13:24:26  
Sam – I’m presuming Super A does not have a water pump? If so, problem is the higher friction resistance from the smaller tubes in the recored radiator is keeping the thermosyphon effect from flowing enough water to cool the engine under load.

Easiest solution is probably to swap the small tube radiator for one with the correct (big tube) core. Or you could install an add-on water pump kit.

I presume you've already checked for an obstruction inside the radiator/hoses, that the fan belt is not slipping, etc...

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SAm in NS

03-11-2004 14:15:47




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 Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to Bob M, 03-11-2004 13:55:43  
I spent a half an hour on the phone trying to explain that to the chap at the radiator shop and he spent the same telling me that more tubes is always better. The fan belt is just fine (hence the antifreeze which boils out is plastered over the rest of the tractor). I haven't checked for an obstruction but the block was cleaned recently and the rad looked fine before installation. I can't find a decent rad anywhere around here (or I have bought it already) so I would need to import one (I'm in Canada) and that'ld cost me more than the tractor did and the water pump isn't cheap either. Thanks, Sam in NS

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Bob M

03-11-2004 15:24:59




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 Re: Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 14:15:47  
The radiator guy is right - more tubes is better - but only for forced circulation (pumped) systems. The old thermosyphon systems however require very large passages on account of the extremely low flow pressures they develop. For these fewer, bigger tubes is better. An "old time" radiator guy would know this...



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Hugh MacKay

03-11-2004 18:16:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to Bob M, 03-11-2004 15:24:59  
Bob: I'd willing to bet there isn't a rad man within 400 miles of Sam that knows what thermosyphon is.



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Bob M

03-11-2004 19:09:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-11-2004 18:16:14  
Sadly you are probably right Hugh...



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rustyfarmall

03-11-2004 14:42:05




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 Re: Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to SAm in NS, 03-11-2004 14:15:47  
Just another thought, for what it is worth. Have you tried running the tractor for a period of time with the radiator cap off? This would/should allow any trapped air to escape? Again, it's just a thought.



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SAm in NS

03-11-2004 17:30:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: What to do about overheating? in reply to rustyfarmall, 03-11-2004 14:42:05  
Thanks for the suggestion but with the state of my current rad cap (I'm replacing that as soon as I can get the cooling system to work so that I can decide which cap to get) the steam is escaping quite freely. Thanks, SAm in NS



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