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414B ENGINE

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JAYSON

04-04-2004 23:32:49




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HEY GUYS, I'VE GOT ANOTHER QUESTION. MY BROTHER HAS A 414B AND THE MOTOR IS JUNK. WHAT ARE THE ODDS OF FINDING ANOTHER MOTOR COMPLETE ? ALSO, WHAT WOULD A MAN GET INTO IF HE PUT A DIESEL ON IT ? WE WERE LOOKING AT MY 504 DIESEL AND THE BLOCKS LOOK ALMOST IDENTICIAL . ANY HELP OR SUGGESTIONS WILL BE APPRIECATED THANKS




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jdemaris

04-05-2004 05:58:15




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 Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to JAYSON, 04-04-2004 23:32:49  
Are you referring to the British or Indian made 154 cubic inch diesel engine? If so, a BD 144 will interchange with it, I don't know what else. I've got a B-275 tractor with the 144. Also a B-414 that used to have the 154 engine but now has a 144 in it. Also, I think the T-5 crawlers use it. I've had many of these engines apart and they're not particularly good engines. Most I've pulled apart - forget most - ALL I've pulled apart have cracked main-bearing webs.

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Greg

04-06-2004 07:56:53




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 Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to jdemaris, 04-05-2004 05:58:15  
jdemaris, are you saying that the BD144/BD154 (diesel engines) aren't particularly good engines? Or the gas engines used in the same tractors aren't good? I'm just curious. I have heard great things about the BD154 diesels in the IH 364 tractor I am buying this weekend. I would like to know what you've seen when you've rebuilt them. Thanks for any information.



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jdemaris

04-06-2004 19:03:36




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 Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to Greg, 04-06-2004 07:56:53  
I'm referring to the BD series diesels. I assume BD stands for British diesel. My first experience was from a B275 I bought at auction. It had water in the oil, bad crank journals, etc. When I pulled it completely apart I found cracks in the crankshaft main-bearing webs. Major cracks that were beyond repair. Also found many stress cracks in the cylinder head all around the precombustion chambers. When I began searching for a good used block, all I found were also cracked in the same areas. After looking a half a dozen used blocks that were ALL cracked, I finally seemed to have found a good one. It was a BD144 that had been put into a B414. The original BD154 had gotten a cracked block and the owner bought a Central Tractor "rebuilt" block. That was the one in it, and the one I bought. After getting it home, and steam cleaning it, I discovered that it too was cracked in the same spots but had been welded, then covered with Bondo, and painted - i.e. the repairs were hidden. That's the block I've been using ever since because I was never able to find one that was better. I have to assume there is a design flaw in the block. I also noticed, when assembling the engine, that the connecting rods don't have any positive method of locking the caps. Most modern rods have dowels, or slots, or fractured surfaces to keep rod caps from shifting. These rods have nothing. So, I consider the engine somewhat low-tech and low-engineered. It's also a poor starter as far as diesels go. So, I love the tractor that it's in, but don't have a lot of faith in the engine. I've probably got 500 hours on it since I put it together. Only time will tell how long it will last, but I don't expect 10,000 hours out of it.

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Greg

04-07-2004 06:37:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to jdemaris, 04-06-2004 19:03:36  
I sure don't dismiss your findings and I'm glad you shared this information with me. But I must say I'm very surprised. I have been told by several sources that these were good engines and the 364 tractor I am picking up this weekend is a good tractor. I have read one post on here where a BD144 or BD154 (I can't remember which) has over 5000hrs and still runs strong and uses almost no oil. I hope we get similar service from ours. I am buying a IH 364 from a friend. I used to run the tractor mowing hay for him a few years ago. It ran STRONG. Always had great oil pressure and ran cool no matter how hot it was or how hard you ran it. But, as I am finding out, they are not the easiest to start. Mine needed glow plugs to start the 1st time each day then it was fine the rest of the day. The most annoying thing I found on this particular tractor was the operation of the glow plugs. They were a sort of mystery. We put new plugs in the tractor but sometimes they didn't work. I could remove/clean the wires between each plug and they would work for a month or so. Then, suddenly, one day they wouldn't work again. I assumed it was a connection problem between the wires running to each plug so I would use sandpaper to clean them even though they never looked dirty. This seemed to get them going again. But, I have read on this board that the glow plug switch is the problem. He told me that he replace the factory switch with a floor-mounted style car starter switch and his have been perfect ever since. Have you had similar problems with your glow plugs? Also, are your hydraulics strong on your tractor? We replaced both the steering and lift pump on the 364 I am buying about 5 years ago. I have read the hydraulics on these tractors are a weak point. I never thought they were from running the 364, just read it on this board. But I must admit, I never lifted anything but a IH 9' sickle mower with the 364 so I guess I never loaded it real hard. Any comments are appreciated.

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jdemaris

04-07-2004 07:04:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to Greg, 04-07-2004 06:37:45  
I like my B-275. Hydraulics work very well and the 3 point lift has a lot of power. I have no problem moving round bales with it. As far as the glow-plugs and wiring goes . . . I didn't use any of the original wiring on mine. It was a mess when I got it, and it was easier and faster to rewire it rather then put it back to original. I assume you understand that the glow-plugs run in series, not parallel. So, if one goes bad, or there is a bad connection along the line, none will work. I've thought about putting quick-heat plugs in, hooked in parallel, but since mine work fine I haven't done it yet. I have Champion #155 plugs in it. The #155 is Champion's new number system, but the plug is actually an AG28 and is rated 40 amps at .9 volts with 18 mm threads. They are wired in series through another sort of glow-plug resistor that sits in the dash and serves as an indicator. When it turns cherry red, you can assume the ones in the engine are also. It works slow and is aggravating at times. There are newer style plugs out that run on 9 or 12 volts, heat up in a few seconds, and are burn-out protected with internal circuit breakers. Not the Champions, but Beru and AC-Delco have them. I use them now in all my diesel trucks (Ford with IH 6.9 and G.M.s with 6.2s). So, as my tractor is now - I put in a modern key igniton switch. The IGN terminal of the switch runs to a small push-button switch on the dash that operates the glow-plugs. Since the glow-plugs draw a lot of amperage, the push-button is wired to control a relay, and the relay sends the full current to the glow-plugs. It's a cheap, maybe $7 relay as used on Ford cars and trucks as a starter relay. It works great. My tractor is a 1960, and Mahindra in India is making them again new. As I understand it, the new tractor uses 85% original parts from 1959-1960, but has more modern sheet metal and a completely different, direct-injected engine.

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Greg

04-12-2004 06:32:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to jdemaris, 04-07-2004 07:04:38  
Hey jdemaris, I picked up my 364 this weekend and I'm real anxious to get this glow plug system working. They aren't hooked up now but it's all there. Even an aftermarket solenoid like you have on yours is already there. Can you explain to me exactly how to wire them? I know they go in series with each other and the resistor in my dash (this tractor already has that also) simply wire all 4 plugs and this resistor together then go to on side post of my solenoid? What gage wire should I use for this? I'm kind of confused on what to do with the "S" and "I" post on my solenoid and then what to do with the other "big" post on the solenoid. I think the other big post goes straight to the battery with a heavy gage wire? I really appreciate your help. I just have no wiring diagrams yet since I just bought this 364 and I don't want to wire it wrong. And I sure need glow plugs on this thing. It cranks real easy after it's cranked the first time but I hate having to turn it over so much the first start of the day.

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jdemaris

04-12-2004 07:20:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to Greg, 04-12-2004 06:32:26  
On the relay, the "I" terminal is of no use to you. It would be for a gas engine with an ignition ballast resistor. The "S" terminal stands for "start." It's the low current 12 volt connection to energize the relay. If it was being used with a starter motor, this "S" terminal would go to the "S" or "Start" connector on the ignition switch or pushbutton. In your situation, it will be connected to whatever you are going to use to turn on your glowplugs. I have a push button on mine, but use whatever you want. It should be a momentary switch, though, i.e. something that turns off by itself when you take you hand off of it. All the relay is, is a remote controlled switch. So, the two big posts are #1 for battery input, and #2 for battery switched output. By feeding 12 volts to the little "S" post, the switch contacts close, and battery current flows from one big post to the other. So, one post gets a wire big enough to carry the current for all the glowplugs. As I recall, my four plugs and the glow-plug indicator draw a total of around 30 amps. 10 gauge wire will work, but 8 gauge is better. You can't "overwire" it. So, you need a wire or cable coming from the postive battery source to one large post. The other large post gets hooked to your glow-plug indicator, which, in turn, is hooked in series with the glow plugs. For a little fire insurance, you can protect the battery source cable or wire with a 30 or 40 amp fuse or circuit breaker where it hooks to the battery. I suggest you hook power to the indicator and four glow plugs to an ammeter and find out exactly how much current you are drawings. Obvisouly, the fuse or breaker must exceed that draw a bit.

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Greg

04-12-2004 07:39:44




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to jdemaris, 04-12-2004 07:20:32  
I understand how the system works now. I do have a pushbutton mounted in the dash for the glow plugs. I see that it needs to hook to the "S" terminal on the relay and why. But don't I need to get power to the pushbutton? In other words one side of the pushbutton is wired directly to the "S" terminal on the glow plug relay and the other side of the pushbutton should have a wire running from the ignition switch shouldn't it? If this is true is it best to use a terminal on the switch that is hot always allowing you to heat the plugs before you even turn on the ignition switch or should I use a post to the pushbutton that is only hot with the ignition switch on? Your mention of the fuse protection at the battery source wire to the glow plug relay is a real "must do" to me. I wonder about the fuses this tractor has. Heck, I don't know for sure that it has any at all. I haven't had time to look at that yet. But I guess you are saying if I put a 40 amp or something of correct size between my (+) battery post and the starter for instance and between my (+) battery post and glow plug relay I will be covered? You are a good person to take time and share all this information with me and I really do appreciate it.

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jdemaris

04-12-2004 07:59:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to Greg, 04-12-2004 07:39:44  
The choice is up to you on how you feed power to the glow-plug push button. Usually, power is switched, not live all the time. So, you'd wire the push button to the igniton terminal on the ignition switch. As far as fuses and breakers go, I tend to protect all the circuits with circuit breakers similar to the way a car or truck is wired.



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Greg

04-12-2004 08:58:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGIN in reply to jdemaris, 04-12-2004 07:59:32  
I see that providing "switched" power to the glow plug pushbutton would be best. That is what I will do. I want all circuits fuse protected also and I don't know if they are now or not. I assume my 364 didn't come with a "fuse panel" anywhere so I guess I can simply add an appropriate in-line type fuse in each circuit to get the job done vs. having a neat and clean fuse panel somewhere. Where for instance in the charging circuit should I put a fuse and what size fuse is correct for it? Should it be in the 8 or 10 gage wire inline with the ammeter? I guess a fuse is totally useless in the line from the #1 or #2 wire from the alt. isn't it?

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jdemaris

04-12-2004 09:11:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B E in reply to Greg, 04-12-2004 08:58:02  
The best safety feature on any tractor is a battery main disconnect switch. When you're not on the tractor you can just leave it off. When running the tractor, if something ever goes wrong somewhere - like perhaps a wire starts burning, you can immediately flip the master switch off. You can buy them for around $35. Deere uses them as standard equipment on their industrial stuff. They come in ratings in the 400 - 1000 amp range. As far as protecting individual circuits, I prefer self-resetting circuit breakers over fuses. That way if you get a momentary short circuit or grounded wire, you won't be out in the middle of nowhere with no extra fuses and no power. That's why most autos don't use fuses in the headlight circuits, only breakers. You can buy them for $4-$7 apiece. I usually put a main 30 or 40 amp breaker at the large wire that runs from the full time positive battery source to the main post on the alternator. This circuit can be touchy though if your charge rate exceeds the breaker capacity. The breaker is designed to trip regardless what direction the current is travelling. I also use a breaker on the IGN circuit off the key switch, and also on the light circuit. Size depends on what wire you're using and what kind of amperage draw you have.

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Greg

04-07-2004 07:34:05




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to jdemaris, 04-07-2004 07:04:38  
Now that I think about it, I have more than one wiring issue to fix on my 364. Last year, a fellow was mowing with it for the friend I am buying it from. There was some sort of short which melted most of the wiring before the fellow could unhook the battery. Therefore, my friend has since rewired the tractor but he didn't even hook the glow plugs back up since they gave so much trouble before. Also, he says the charging circuit isn't working. It melted the back of the amp gage so I need to replace it. He fears it may have fried the Delco 3-wire alt. also. We don't know yet. He has owned the tractor nearly 10 years and it had already been converted to the Delco 3-wire alt. then. It worked great with 0 problems until the short melted the wiring. Do you run the orginal generator on yours or what? I'm not 100% sure how to wire the Delco 3-wire alt. along with the amp gage...

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jdemaris

04-07-2004 07:46:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to Greg, 04-07-2004 07:34:05  
Mine still had the generator on it when I got it but it was NG. I put the Delco on it which can be wired with two or three wires, all depends whether you wish to use an indicator charge light along with the ammeter. The reason why Delco shows a three-wire hookup in their schematics doesn't really apply to tractors. There is a minute difference in voltage depending where you tap into the system when it's running for signals being sent to the internal voltage regulator. Delco uses the three wire system to detect minute voltage differences in systems that have long runs of wire - as found in cars and trucks. If desired, and you don't need or want an "idiot light", you can use a two wire hookup, or, install a "self-exciting" regulator, and then it will be a one wire hookup. My tractor has the ammeter and the idiot-light charge indicator. No good reason for it, but it's easy to hook up and I kind of like it.

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Greg

04-07-2004 07:59:52




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to jdemaris, 04-07-2004 07:46:33  
I surely want to use an ammeter and the idiot light charge indicator might be nice also. Can you explain how the hookup goes or is it too hard to explain in text only? I believe there is a "1" and "2" or an "R" and "F" on my Delco alt. I appreciate your help and time.



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jdemaris

04-07-2004 18:55:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to Greg, 04-07-2004 07:59:52  
I assume you're going to use the Delco 10 or 12 si, it's the most common for this purpose - although I've been using Hitachis lately, taken of older Subarus. They have the same hookup, but are much more compact. Anyway, the alternator has the main battery post, and then a harness plug connects to the top of it and it has two terminals, #1 and #2. #1 goes to switched current, i.e. hook it to the IGN terminal of the ignition switch with at least 16 gauge wire, as long as you have a diesel and not a gas engine. If you want to install a charge indicator light, put it in line between the #1 terminal and the IGN on the ignition switch. #2 terminal on the alternator is for "voltage sensing." It tells the internal regulator what voltage is at the battery. On a machine where there is a long run of wire, this wire would go to the postive post on the battery because the voltage there can be slightly different than at the alternator. For hook up on your tractor, you can just connect it to the large post on the alternator - so just put a jumper wire from #2 to the large BAT post, maybe a 2" or 3" piece of 16 gauge wire. Now, that large BAT post on the alternator goes to the positive post of your battery. It needs to be heavy wire, at least 10 gauge, but 8 is more adequate. Your ammeter goes in line with this wire, i.e. somewhere between the alternator and the positive battery post. A few notes: You don't have to actually hook this big wire on the battery post if there are better places that are closer. On some tractors, it can be put on the starter relay or switch post if you have one. What ever you hook it to, it must eventually hook to the positive battery post and must be at least as heavy as the 8 or 10 gauge wire. Some tractors, cars, etc. don't use direct reading ammeters anymore. The reason being it entails using too much wire. On your tractor it probably won't make a big difference. On a car or truck, the big charge wire would have to run a long, long way. So, in those cases either volt meters are used - which don't need heavy wire, or "shunt-wired" ammeters are used. They give a representative reading. In general, a shunt-wired ammeter that shows 30 amperes of charge might only have 3 amps flowing though it, so it only allows a fraction of the available current to flow through it, and therefore uses a small wire, but lies to you and pretends it's doing more. In the end, you are still seeing an acurate reading, it's just kind of lying to you for your own good. I probably told you more than you want to hear.

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Greg

04-08-2004 05:55:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGIN in reply to jdemaris, 04-07-2004 18:55:17  
You'll never tell me more than I want to hear. I really enjoy this kind of thing and want to learn all I can. Thank you so much for taking time to share all this with me. As I said, this IH364 already had a Delco converted on it but it may be fried due to the wire short a few months ago. If it is, I'll just get another one. That wiring sure sounds simple, that's good. I don't recall this 364 having a warning light for the charge so what should I use for this? Is there some certain bulb or assembly that is best? I guess I don't have install a warning light since I'll have the ammeter but it would be nice. Am I correct in saying the warning light will just be on until the alternator is "excited" then it will go off and you know you are charging? I appreciate your time.

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jdemaris

04-08-2004 06:19:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B E in reply to Greg, 04-08-2004 05:55:50  
Yes, as soon as alternator voltage exceeds battery voltage, the light will go out. Any 12 volt indicator light will do.



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Greg

04-07-2004 07:22:18




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to jdemaris, 04-07-2004 07:04:38  
Thanks, jdemaris. You are full of information. We replaced the plugs in the tractor I am buying when I used to run it mowing hay for the friend I am now buying it from. He bought 3 new plugs from the IH dealer because that's all they had. We knew one of the old ones was good so it has 3 new and 1 old plug. I wonder if the ones we got from the IH dealer are Champion or what brand? Anyway, sounds like your setup with the modern key switch, resistor as an indicator and push button with relay is a nice setup. As my 364 is now, it is still "factory". I can tell from our discussion that I need to rewire my plugs and get them to working properly. I don't think the plugs are my problem at all but all the wiring and switches contain the problem. I do realize they are in series and I'm a good mechanic so I'll have to work on these. I may email you with questions after this weekend when I pick up the tractor if that's ok. Is your 275 older or newer than my 364 or were they made in the same years? Aren't they real similar? As far as I'm concerned, the weakest part on the 364 is the power steering (at least the tractor I'm buying). It just seems to help about 1/2 as much as it should. We ran a 3600 Ford mowing hay along side the IH 364 and I like everything about the 364 better except the power steering. The 3600 Ford's steering is so smooth and easy, nearly effortless to turn the wheels under any condition.

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jdemaris

04-07-2004 07:58:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to Greg, 04-07-2004 07:22:18  
I'm not an IH expert and I've never seen a 364, but I think they were sold around 1976 or 77. I was a Deere mechanic for much of my life, thus my lack of IH knowledge. My tractor is of 1959 and 1960 vintage and power-steering was not available. If your tractor has an engine-mounted power-steering pump, it must use an updated engine.



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Greg

04-07-2004 08:09:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to jdemaris, 04-07-2004 07:58:59  
My 364 still has it's original BD154 engine and it has a "piggyback" style hydraulic pump mounted on the right side of the engine, driven off the gears in the timing cover. They call it "piggyback" because it is 2 hydraulic pumps mounted back-to-back and actually independent of each other but they suck out of the same reservoir. the back pump just services the power steering cylinder while the forward pump services the lift. It's all factory original. My power steering cylinder sits on the left side of the tractor somewhat parallel with the tractor. It doesn't have a mechanism under the steering shaft for the power steering such as Fords and JD's I've seen.

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jdemaris

04-07-2004 18:58:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGINE in reply to Greg, 04-07-2004 08:09:42  
That's interesting, maybe it is the same British/Indian engine. The newest British IH tractors I've worked on in this area were 444s with hyrostatic drive.



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Greg

04-08-2004 06:18:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B ENGIN in reply to jdemaris, 04-07-2004 18:58:47  
I think I confused the issue. I don't mean it has hydrostatic drive. It has the simple 4 speed main/2 speed range transmission. I was just describing the hydraulic system. Power steering has it's own pump in rear, lift has it's own pump in front. They are mounted back-to-back and on the right side of the engine. The pumps look the same, there are just 2 of them in a "stacked" orientation. I know a fellow that has a IH 444 or 424 (I think a 444 though) and it has this same setup on it. But it doesn't have a power steering cylinder exposed on the left hand side of the tractor as my 364 does. It has the more conventional valving system under the steering column. I'll try to get some pics of my 364 steering/hydro pumps sometime in the near future and send them to you if it would make this more clear.

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jdemaris

04-08-2004 06:23:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 414B E in reply to Greg, 04-08-2004 06:18:14  
No, you didn't confuse things. I'm just stating that the most recent British built IH I've see is a 444 that happens to have hydrostatic drive. I had to split it for the guy and put a new drive coupler into it.



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Greg

04-08-2004 06:32:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 41 in reply to jdemaris, 04-08-2004 06:23:07  
That's interesting. I don't know much about these tractors, but I've seen some 444's. Never seen a hydrostatic drive 444 though. How do they hold up? I've never been a big fan of hydrostatic drive. I just like postive clutch engagement and teeth to teeth but I guess they work fine when designed properly. All the big tractors that pull huge implements in big farm country are hydro drive that I've seen. It just seems shaky to me. More comfortable to operate and way smoother but when you put big horsepower in front of it and a heavy load behind it, it boggles my mind how they stay together. Heck, I don't even like automatic transmissions in vehicles so I biased.

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jdemaris

04-08-2004 07:07:27




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to Greg, 04-08-2004 06:32:24  
I don't like hydrostatic drives, but when they work they're great. You can run the engine at any desired speed and adjust your wheel speed independently. I've seen lots of problems with attachments and engine speed versus wheel speed. Put a 6 foot PTO powered rototiller on a tractor, or a PTO powered snowblower, and it becomes an issue. Many tractors don't have a low enough gear, especially when the attachment needs horsepower. Take an attachment that needs 40 horsepower, and put it on a tractor that only develops 40 horse at full throttle - it may, and probably will, travel too fast. So, a hydrostatic drive is one good answer, also a tractor with a wide range of gears also works. As far as the IH 444, the guy had lot of trouble with it, and finally got rid of it. It had a drive-coupler, splined, that hooked to the hydrostatic drive. The coupler kept on stripping it's splines, and finally ruined the shafts too. Personally, I don't like hydrostats - because service parts are limited - it seems with most, once they're bad they must be replaced. But, I have not had a lot of experience with them on large machines.

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Greg

04-08-2004 09:07:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re in reply to jdemaris, 04-08-2004 07:07:27  
I haven't run any real large machines with hydrostat drive but I've run a "newish" JD 6300 mowing hay with a 8-9' rotary hay cutter. Obviously, the tractor wasn't having to truly "pull" a heavy load, but the mower kept the engine loaded pretty heavy. Hydro works great for this. Very easy on the operator, smooth and an infinite source of gear ratios to a point. But if the tractor was mine I would really hate to slam a disc deep in the ground and pull it to death. Just don't see how that hydro unit will live. Although almost every dozer I've ever run was 100% hydro as well as maintainers. That's a good argument for how reliable they can be. But I'm just scared of them. I'll stick with gears meshing on my equipment.

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