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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Looking for info on a IHC 404

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LeRoy

05-10-2004 14:10:38




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Can anyone provide any info or where to find info on a IHC 404? I suppose this is like a IHC 444?

LeRoy




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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 17:22:39




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 Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to LeRoy, 05-10-2004 14:10:38  
LeRoy: Well, we got a good education today. I wasn't sure where I was heading when I got involved in this last evening. I had a hunch, the situation was as it turned out. I have watched discussion before on these tractors, and if US and Canadian participants are both involved, discussion often goes nowhere. Painful to say the least.



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CNKS

05-10-2004 19:14:59




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 Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to LeRoy, 05-10-2004 14:10:38  
I have not actually seen a 404, but have spent considerable time on a 444. I don't think there are many similarities. 404 came in row crop and utility versions, 444 utility only. 444 live PTO, 404 live on later models, 444 C153 gas engine, 404 C135. I don't know if the C153 is a newer version of the C113/123/135 or not. Someone can correct me but I believe the 404 had a single range transmission, I know the 444 had a hi-low 4 speed -- 8 forward, 2 reverse. The 404 was all US built, the 444 had British heritage, whether built in the US or Great Britain. I think the 444 is more similar to the B series British tractors than to the 404.

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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 03:03:59




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 Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to CNKS, 05-10-2004 19:14:59  
CNKS: Are you sure the later model 404's came with live PTO. I have the IT manual on this tractor and it makes no mention of live PTO. Everything about this tractor is very much like the 240, thus it would take a major engineering overhaul to install Live PTO. I'm like you, I have never seen one, just happened when I ordered the IT manual for 140, it covers 100, 130, 140, 200, 230, 240, 404 and 2404. Leafing through this manual the same text describes a lot of the proceedures, particularly with 240, and to a lesser extent with the others. There are a couple of proceedures common text with 100 and 130.

One main difference between 240 and 404, is the 404 has torque tube enlarged so that a dual range or foreward-reverse drive can be fitted just ahead of transmission. That is not both but rather either/or. As near as I can tell from the IT manual those options make no provissions for maintaining 540 PTO. As I see it on the dual range when you change to low range so will the PTO. Same with foreward-reverse, when you shift, it will reverse the PTO.

That is what I see in the IT manual, there may be provissions to compensate for these items, but I can't see them.

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CNKS

05-11-2004 19:41:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-11-2004 03:03:59  
Hugh, all I know about the 404 is what the books tell me, which is the later models had a live pto. If you are talking about the dual range transmission on the 404, I know nothing about it. As to the 444, live pto speed and direction do not change with range, as I have used the pto in both ranges forward and reverse -- don't think you meant the 444. Hard to imagine that IH would make a unit the changes or reverses the pto, though. That would really screw something up.

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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 20:29:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to CNKS, 05-11-2004 19:41:45  
CNKS: It is the 404 with that oddball dual range transmission or foreward-reverse drive. I have studied the IT manual, and I cant see that it will work any other way. Basically the same technology as our SA or SC with a two speed gear box in the torque tube, and you and I both know what would happen with that.

I am familiar with the 444, I must admit a lot more familiar now that I know the real difference between US and Canadian (British) models. 444 is a nice little tractor in diesel. It starts far better than the older British diesels

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Hugh MacKay

05-10-2004 17:59:55




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 Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to LeRoy, 05-10-2004 14:10:38  
LeRoy: I maybe shouldn't speak too quickly as the 444 that was sold here in Canada was different from the US 444. I'm not sure the 424 was ever sold in Canada. My understanding is it was only the sheet metal that was different. If that is this case these tractors are completely different from the 404. From this side of the border 424 and 444 were British built tractors. Just looking at 150 Years of IH, the castings on 424 and 444 are clearly same as the British tractors. The British tractors all had diff lock, live pto as in two stage clutch, dual range 4 speed that was a different shift pattern from the 200, 240 and 404 tractors. I think you will find that without exception all US manufactured IH tractors with live PTO were in fact Independant PTO. The 424 and 444 could well have been assembled in the US, that may explain the different sheet metal between US and Canadian tractors.

The 404 however was an Amercan built tractor all the way, basically same chassis SC, 200, 230 and 240. It had the same 4 speed gear box, same transmission driven pto and belt pulley. The hydraulic pump on a 404 mounts the same as SA, SC, 230, 240, etc. It did have an optional hi-low that fit in torque tube. The engine was changed from the C-123 used in the earlier ones to the C-135.

I may not be completely right on this. I know I am right on some of it. I have an IT manual for the 404, it's in the same book with 100, 130, 140, 200, 230 and 240. The 424 may be a German manufactured tractor. I know the Canadian 444 came to Canada completely assembled, I have seen them being unloaded at Halifax.

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LeRoy

05-10-2004 19:00:12




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 Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-10-2004 17:59:55  

Hugh,

Thats more than I knew 5 minutes ago. Given your post the HP would be around 30 in a Gas tractor. There was probably a diesel also but guessing. Don't see many around even though the production numbers seem to be fairly high.

LeRoy



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Hugh MacKay

05-10-2004 20:19:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to LeRoy, 05-10-2004 19:00:12  
LeRoy: There were a lot of 444 sold here in Canada. Probably one of IH's biggest sellers in their era.

In the book 150 Years of IH it states the 404 was sold from 1961 to 1967 for Farmall and 1968 for Utility. The 424 a utility model only was sold from 1964 to 1967. The 444 ran from 1967 to 1971 again Utility type only. Wendel's figures will be US figures.

Here in Canada we also got the 404 same years as you people did. Those would have been built in US. Between 1964 and 67 we were getting out of Britain a 434 and specs are same as US 424, but again sheet metal is different. From 1967 on until at least 1975 we got the British built 444, specs are same as the US 444, but sheet metal is different. Also note it was only sold in US until 1971. The hp on all these tractors are in the 33 to 38 range.

My advise to you would be bring this all to the attention of Guy Fay or Bermuda Ken. We know also IH were selling 424, 434 and 444 across Europe and very likely Austrailia. The European and Canadian 444 had the same sheet metal. Question for the stats men did these all run in sequence on serial numbers. My thinking is US tractors were probably assembled in the US using British power train and US sheet metal. Would be interesting to know if US tractors had their own serial sequence. The fenders on the British and Canadian 444 had some resemblance to 460-560 fenders, being rounded on top.

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LeRoy

05-11-2004 03:41:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-10-2004 20:19:56  
Hugh,

I posted on the ATIS list where Guy hangs out periodically, haven't heard anything from him. Maybe he's on vacation or something. Never heard of the other name. Any particular spot to post to get their attention?

LeRoy



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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 04:07:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to LeRoy, 05-11-2004 03:41:30  
LeRoy: I posted a question right here on YT for both of them a couple days back. Within 24 hours I had a responce from both of them. I think they both monitor this site at least once most days. I have always kind of wondered about this same question, as such I am as curious as you.

I first noticed the difference in the US and Canadian 444, 20 years ago right after I recieved my copy of 100 Years of IH. We started off here in Canada getting British built IH tractors about mid 1950's with the B-250, B-275, B-276, 414, 434 and 444 in that order. The basic design never really changed a whole lot in 20 years. If you notice they did drop the B prefix, that happened in the early 60s. I guess IH decided back in those days we would never see what was on the other side of the border. I had a relative in MA 30 years ago we used to compare the US and Canadian buyers guide. The differences were numerous.

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Van in AR

05-10-2004 15:23:52




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 Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to LeRoy, 05-10-2004 14:10:38  
Same basic tractor as the 444, just two models older.
404, 424, 444
Van



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Harold H

05-11-2004 06:02:57




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 Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to Van in AR, 05-10-2004 15:23:52  
Farmall and International 404 are completely different from 424, 444. The 404 desended from the C. The 424 & 444, decended from the B-275 & B-414.

Harold H



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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 06:17:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to Harold H, 05-11-2004 06:02:57  
Harold: Could you comment on the differences between US and Canadian 444 as I have outlined above. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.



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LeRoy

05-10-2004 17:50:17




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 Re: Re: Looking for info on a IHC 404 in reply to Van in AR, 05-10-2004 15:23:52  

Whats the HP rating on these? Hard to find parts for? 3pt? Weight?

LeRoy



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