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Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer Engi

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Tommy H

06-02-2004 14:54:59

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Hey, Im just curious, my C is supposed to have something like 20hp or so...and it could pull a house off its foundation...lol

We had a 1998 JD 445efi tractor, with loader and weights it weighed 3,000 lbs give or take. And it didnt pull all that hard, in fact when chained to my little WheelHorse 702 (1962 model, with 1964 Kohler 8hp) it was dead even. The JD strained, and dug a little, but the WH spun its tires, and never moved.

Now, my Uncle has a new Yard machine mower, that has a 18hp Briggs, and it feels like it has absolutly no power at all.

What gives? I thought a Horsepower was a horsepower.

1 Horsepower = The ability to move 1lb 1 foot in 1 seconds right?

im confused....

Also, I know it has alot ot do with Torque, the older engines, the Kohler and the Farmall are torque monsters...as the newer ones just buzz around at high RPMS...

so...anyone know?

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David Wylie

03-18-2006 16:29:13

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Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer in reply to Tommy H, 06-02-2004 14:54:59

A common misconception. If you cannot transfer the power to the ground, and in the case of your lawnmower, it does not develop the power at the ground. A tractor that devolops x-horsepower at the draw bar or the p.t.o. has the ability to do just what it is rated to do, while your lawn mower is not a tractor. The gear box on it is only designed to transmit a certain amount of power to the ground while the remainder goes to the mower deck. Again a common misconception a lot of people think just because they have a lawn mower with a big horse-power engine they can use it like they a tractor. Then they wonder why it does not last long. Look at a tractor like my old Massey 135 it makes it"s horsepower at 1500 r.p.m. while your lawnmowere has to run at 3400-3600 r.p.m. to make its power. If you put a gear reduction on it like is on a tractor you will be able to get the pulling power.

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Chris Brown

06-02-2004 19:32:12

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Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer in reply to Tommy H, 06-02-2004 14:54:59

I think something got lost in translation.Maybe those are japanese horsepower,or those miniature horses. My old 560d cranks out 65 good old American horse powers ,PTO.

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UFO Man

06-02-2004 19:10:13

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Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer in reply to Tommy H, 06-02-2004 14:54:59

It is horsepower converted to torque. Mathmatically, my 45 horse produces as much torque on the ground at 1800 rpm as a 65 horse tractor at 2600 rpm.

That, and the weight of the older tractors, is why the older stuff will pull down the house and the new ones won't.

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Dave

06-02-2004 18:01:37

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Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer in reply to Tommy H, 06-02-2004 14:54:59

Lots of times the HP ratings are so-called IHP: for Indicated Horse Power, which is determined mathematically. Often times the engine will only produce that amount of power at near red-line operating speeds, which is not where anyone typically operates. On top of this, the losses that occur through the drive train, etc. eat up a lot of power.

The power drop from max rpm to operating rpm is roughly a direct proportion for naturally aspirated engines. If an engine makes 20 hp at 6000 rpm, it will only make 10 hp at 3000 rpm, and so forth.

Torque and displacement are better indicators of an engine's usefulness, in my opinion (especially for tractors). The quality of the drive (gear vs. friction) also makes a difference.

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PA Steve

06-02-2004 17:28:03

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Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer in reply to Tommy H, 06-02-2004 14:54:59

There are a few things to keep in mind when talking about power. Will was right about 1 horsepower being the ability to exert a 550 pound force over 1 foot in 1 second. That's the first thing that comes to mind when we think about tractors pulling in the field. Mechanical power is always force x velocity, but since engines rotate, engine horsepower is torque x rotational speed. Hugh made a good point about many ratings these days being bench test ratings for the engine. A good tractor efficiently takes the power output capabilities of the engine and transmits them to the ground. That depends on things like drive train efficiency, weight distribution, tire tread and ground conditions. The power that makes it to the ground is the only thing that matters anyway, right? Take it easy

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TP from Central PA

06-02-2004 17:22:36

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Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer in reply to Tommy H, 06-02-2004 14:54:59

Glad to see another person on here likes a good old Wheel Horse! Got a bunch of them myself, some restored, some orginal..... ...People really look at me weird when I say I have a nice original WH RJ with a 4 hp Kohler and a mower deck that works very well. I don't think they understand when they put larger engines on push mowers these days. You must be thinking the same thing I always do..... ...These new 50 hp tractors sure don't make the same good old power that say our Super M-TA does..... ..

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Tommy H

06-02-2004 19:29:26

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Re: Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on ne in reply to TP from Central PA, 06-02-2004 17:22:36

Hey, yeah, I love my little 702. And theres nothing like the sound of a Starter/Generator starting an old Kohler.

The ol nut roasters are cool, but I like something a little heavier...lol

I used the 702 to pull the C around the yard and up the street to test the clutch and oil pump. My dad was on the C, clutch in, in 4th gear. Im on the 702, 2nd gear, revved to the max, with a heavy loggign chain connecting us.

I tightened the chain and let the clutch out, the Kohler bogged for a second then the original Bar lugs gripped hard and pulled the Big C out, got er rolling then had my dad let out the clutch.

Picture this.

702, as small as it is, going down the road, which is at a slight angle, going up that angle, tires slipping ever so slightly, 1 front tire is up in the air because the frame is torqueing down so hard. I quickly shift to 3rd...holy crap...we gone!!! Im cruising, engine isnt even trying anymore, clutch grabbed fine, and had decent oil pressure. Then he decides to try 3rd gear. So he pushes in the clutch, and goes into 3rd, and drops the clutch....wayyyy too much for the 702! On asphault, its moving at maybe 1/2 mile per hour..spinning the tires...lol...im still in 3rd...lol!!!

I love the little horse, but Icant wait to get the C running!

PS are you goign to the WH show in Ardentensville Pa. this year?

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Hugh MacKay

06-02-2004 16:19:20

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Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer in reply to Tommy H, 06-02-2004 14:54:59

Tommy: Any figures that were quoted on your C fifty years ago were very close to Nebraska tests and were either belt or pto and drawbar horsepower. The newer machines you listed will be manufacturers estimated flywheel horsepower, before hydraulic pumps, electrical, etc are added.

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Will Sick

06-02-2004 16:16:11

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Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer in reply to Tommy H, 06-02-2004 14:54:59

One horsepower equals 550 ft pounds per sec. It depends on how the horse power is determined.Some rating are from putting the machine on a dyno to see how they can get the rating to jump when they throw in the clutch. The best rating is continuous horsepower which is the power an engine can produce and maintain for an extended time.

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little john

06-02-2004 15:15:47

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Re: Old Horsepower ratings versus Rating on newer in reply to Tommy H, 06-02-2004 14:54:59

I'm no expert on any of this, but I know it has a lot to do with the weight of the tractor and the torque of a slow-RPM engine.

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