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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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is lead additive necessary?

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Schmidty

07-20-2004 16:28:54




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My neighbor borrowed me his 300 rowcrop with loader. He gave me extra hydraulic fluid and a bottle of lead substitute. Is lead substitute absolutely necessary? My ex-father-in-law has ran all 5 of his tractors almost daily since lead was no longer added to gasoline, and they still run quite well. I know pre-1975 automotive valve guides and seats wear substantially but aren't the Farmall's seats hardened. If lead substitute really is required, what is the best and how much should I add. Thanks, Schmidty

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Ken T.

07-21-2004 15:19:20




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 Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Schmidty, 07-20-2004 16:28:54  
I put lead substitute in the gas for my 806. It doesn't run well at all without it. The Tractor Vet told me that adding lead substitute also raises the octane rating which probably is necessary for this motor. If this motor ran well without lead substitute, I wouldn't use it. From what I have read, it seems that the smaller motors seem to do better without lead substitute than the larger motors.

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Hugh MacKay

07-21-2004 17:20:10




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 Re: Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Ken T., 07-21-2004 15:19:20  
Size is not the factor, rather RPM 806 turns a lot faster than the older ones.



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lee

07-21-2004 13:51:41




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 Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Schmidty, 07-20-2004 16:28:54  
An automotive engine, not necessarily a high performance one, might run 30,000 to 50,000
miles with cast iron valve seats and no lead gas.
Depends a lot on valve sping pressures, cam profiles, engine rpm etc., etc... Performance engines have high valve spring pressures, aggressive cams, high rpm so the cast valve seats ae not going to hold up real well, especially without the leaded gas lubricant.

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Hugh MacKay

07-21-2004 13:47:51




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 Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Schmidty, 07-20-2004 16:28:54  
Schmidty: To give you some idea on volume, I put 600 gallons each per year of unleaded gas through my SA and 130, for longer than I care to remember.

The old Farmall 300 that my dad bought new in 1955 is still going and probably has well over 25,000 hours on it. It is now on it's 6th set of pistons and sleeves. I know it was doing 4,000 hours on a set. It probably hasn't had a drink of leaded gas since 1970. Most of these tractors have had a valve change by now when being rebuilt. It wasn't valves that caused rebuilds in any of my tractors. Blowby will take these old gas Farmalls down long before any part of the head gives trouble.

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haymeadow52

07-20-2004 19:43:20




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 Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Schmidty, 07-20-2004 16:28:54  
First, to answer your question...no, the lead additive is not necessary.
That said, your neighbor uses it in HIS tractor and is obviously wanting you to do the same while using HIS tractor. If I borrowed my neighbors tractor, and he wanted me to change the air in the tires every night because that's what he does, I would change the air in the tires every night and thank him for the use of the tractor.
:o)

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Leland

07-20-2004 18:59:19




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 Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Schmidty, 07-20-2004 16:28:54  
I've heard it both ways they say add some bacause valves are soft.unlike newer valves are hard for unleaded gas but instead of buying lead sub, just use about 1 cup of non dert motor oil mixed gas will lube valves cheaply



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CNKS

07-20-2004 17:53:40




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 Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Schmidty, 07-20-2004 16:28:54  
Probably a hundred posts in the archives about this. The answer is an unqualified NO.



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Hugh MacKay

07-20-2004 17:12:51




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 Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Schmidty, 07-20-2004 16:28:54  
Schmidty: I like your father in law have been running my Farmalls wthout since lead was no longer added. Lets face it you are running an old Farmall turning max. somewhere between 1400 and 1800 rpm depending on model. That lead additive hype was started by old car guys turning engines 2 to 3 times the rpm. High performance engine your Farmall is not.



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Allan in NE

07-20-2004 17:44:00




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 Re: Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 07-20-2004 17:12:51  
Hugh,

This reminds me of the hype about "Ya can't put R-134A in a R-12 cooling system".

All hype to get the old stores used up, and boy did we fall for that tale for quite a number of years. :>)

Allan



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Bob

07-20-2004 21:52:43




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 Re: Re: Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Allan in NE, 07-20-2004 17:44:00  
It's not so much that the older compressors are not compatible with the R-134A, it's the OIL in the old compressors that's not compatible R-134A. The compressor will die from lack of lubrication if R-134A is used with the original mineral oil, even though there is still oil in the system. If too much old oil is left in the system and Polyol Ester oil is added the result can be a system full of disgusting sludge, and if PAG oil is added to a system with mineral oil in it, the results are even worse!

If you get as much mineral as possible out of the compressor, flush the system, replace the dryer, and add the correct amount of polyol ester oil before evacuating the system and recharging with R-134A, it will work great!

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Allan in NE

07-21-2004 03:00:29




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Bob, 07-20-2004 21:52:43  
Hi Bob,

Yep, that's what I do too, except I never did buy into the "replace the receiver" theory either, unless there was evidence of metal floating around in there.

I just give 'em a good healthy flushing, swap the ports and fill 'em up.

They aren't quite as efficient as the old R-12 was, but do work well for years on end.

Thanks for the hollar,

Allan



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CNKS

07-20-2004 18:02:48




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 Re: Re: Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to Allan in NE, 07-20-2004 17:44:00  
Everything I have been told or read says R12 and 134a are not compatible. Compressor shelled out in my R12 1992 GMC half ton last year. Had my choice of going with R12 or converting to 134a. 134a is one heck of a lot cheaper than the current price of R12, with the possibility that R12 may be in short supply some day -- the recycled stuff is still available. My mechanic did not try to convince me one way or the other but indicated that 134a might not cool down as fast as R12. I had it converted to 134a and it works as good as it did before the compressor crashed.

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casey

07-20-2004 20:08:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to CNKS, 07-20-2004 18:02:48  
sorry to follow off topic here but you are very right CNKS. i work in a ford/dodge dealership and i see this one all the time. r12 and r134 are not compatible, but with that said it is possible to update a system. with proper retrofit kits we update r12 to r134 all the time. it is always cheaper to upgrade than to recharge with r12. there is a chance the compressor will not last but the A/C mechanic hasn't seen one for 10 years.

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Allan in NE

07-21-2004 03:16:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: is lead additive necessary? in reply to casey, 07-20-2004 20:08:02  
Casey,

I, as per usual, didn't make myself clear. :>)

I agree you can't "mix" the two. But, the real question comes in on the cost of that "retro-fit kit".

All the change over requires is a darned good flushing, change the ports and add a few ounces of R134A oil, which aside from the freon, should come to no more than $30 or so.

Now, in the case of CNKS, who had a blown compressor, I'd replace that dryer also because it is almost impossible to get all that scrap iron out of the thing.

Have a good one,

Allan

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Bob

07-21-2004 09:45:38




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: is lead additive necessary in reply to Allan in NE, 07-21-2004 03:16:57  
The reason I always replace the dryer is that there is a potential for an a lot of the old mineral oil to be trapped in the dessicant bag. Replacing the dryer is a lot better than taking the risk of having enough of the old oil trapped there to turn the whole system to sludge. Having a "fresh" dryer is vital for preventing rust and corrosion in the system, also.

I have dealt with that on two systems this summer, where others did not get enough of the old oil out, and it ain't pretty!

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