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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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grinding gears

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Kid with dumb q

10-25-2004 19:01:30




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I am 14 years old and dad always tells me not to grind gears when I drive our tractors, a 560, 756 and 1066. I ask him how much grinding is too much and all he says is dont grind them. When I drive on the road and shift gears on the fly with them, they always grind just a little bit when going into 3rd and 4th (or 5th on 560). Same thing when I shift in the field on the fly. Does this hurt the gears or is this normal. Am I doing something wrong? Could something be done not to grind a bit? Please help. I don't want to hurt my dad's tractors but if i ask again he'll sure get annoyed. Thanks.

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scotc

10-27-2004 20:46:13




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
if you can't get it with the clutch, do like the guy I teamed with when we started driving truck. He had a timing problem and when i got him shifting without a clutch, he hit every one. Concentration was focused on gettting the RPM drop he needed instead of where his left foot was. Usually don't use the clutch with the 56-up series tractors we have when I am on the road.



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TP from Central PA

10-26-2004 11:33:31




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
I was always told the exact opposite..... ..."We gotta go, if you can"t find "em grind "em"

Don"t worry about it, you"ll figure it out.



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Novel Idea Guy

10-26-2004 10:56:00




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
Any grinding is too much, because it all adds up and eventually wears out the gears. Realistically, you can only hope to grind gears as little as possible, but the goal is to NEVER grind the gears.

On tractors with a "crash" gearbox, like all three of those, you've got two choices:
1. Come to a complete stop before you shift.
2. Learn to double-clutch.

The 560 should have a "sweet spot" as some others have described where you can go from 4th to 5th without double-clutching. 5th is geared so high in a 560 that it's tough to start from a complete stop, even with the TA back.

I grew up on the exact same tractors. My Dad had me driving as young as 4, obviously well-supervised. "Don't grind the gears" was soundly beaten into my head long before I made it to 14...

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aitch

10-26-2004 02:53:23




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
PA Steve sums it up very well. Where he says to keep the clutch pedal depressed for a few seconds before shifting into 5th, when I do this shift on my H, I count to 5. When and if it does grind it is minimal. There are variables of course such as the temperature of the tranny oil, the clutch shaft takes longer to slow down when it is warm than when it is cold. We have all been through this learning process, you will get the hang of it with experience. Good Luck, Sid.

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Paul in Mich

10-25-2004 20:37:36




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
Kid, The technique I always use when shifting to road gear on the fly is to start in 4th and throttle up to nearly full speed in 4th then while depressing the clutch, throttle down to nearly idle speed, and gently pull the shift lever from 4th to 5th., then let out on the clutch and throttle back up. It takes some practice to realize just where that sweet spot is in shifting, but as others have mentioned, practice makes perfect. You can"t help but grind gears if you do not throttle down before shifting, so that is very important. As to shifting on the fly while in the field, It is as Hugh macKay says, better to start out in the gear you want or come to a dead stop and either up shift or down shift. The dirty little secret is, however, that all of us have ground a gear or so in our time. We are just reluctent to admit it. I bet your Dad is no different.

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Leland

10-25-2004 20:29:46




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
I could rarely keep from grinding gears on a binder even when the tractor was stopped and idling the always ground or jumped out of gear when you pushed the clutch in when stopping they are funny beasts good luck.



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Wardner

10-25-2004 20:27:02




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
I am guessing that your father grinds them too. Maybe not quite as bad as you. If he knew how to shift, he would have taught you the drill and supported your effort to learn.

The first step in learning how to shift is to understand how a transmission works. The grinding is caused by two gear circumferences running at different speeds. Ideally you should try to match the speed of the mainshaft with the speed ratio of the countershaft even as both are accelerating or decelerating. That can be done with timing, throttle control, and clutching. Variables include load on tractor, terain, and grade.

To put it simply, it is an acquired skill that will take some time to learn. You will find that downshifting will be the easyiest to learn because the throttle won't have to be moved. Some shifting on the go is impossible if the loads on the tractor are high. Just stop the tractor and select a new gear. These are the times you wished you had a good TA.

Synchomesh gear clutches were invented in the '20s to simplify shifting. Trucks didn't get them until the '50s. Tractors were even later. Some Roadranger truck trannys are still built without them. These manual transmissions are shifted without using the clutch on many of the gear changes. It's all done with throttle control and deft shifter movememt and range selection once the vehicle is underway in first gear.

If your father won't or can't show you how, you should seek out an oldtimer who might really enjoy teaching a beginner how to shift, particularly if it's not his tractor.

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Biged

10-26-2004 13:47:15




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Wardner, 10-25-2004 20:27:02  
Kiddo I have read all these rep.s all I can figure is go to dad & ask him please teach me!! I'f he can let us know how!!!, if not Practice!! and when U can let us know the only stupid ?? is the 1 that is'nt asked
best of luck BigED



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Hugh MacKay

10-25-2004 20:10:47




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
Kid: I mastered the art of double shifting on trucks many years ago. I also farmed some years putting close to 75,000 hours on 300, 560D, 504, 656D and 1066. If you figure how to sucessfully double clutch those Farmalls, will you kindly advise me how it is done.

Double clutching is done by depressing clutch and moving transmission to neutral, while in neutral you adjust your engine rpm and quickly drop clutch out, so as to bring in put and out put shafts of transmission to same speed. It will then go in gear without grinding. With the truck you have momentum to carry you through this. The tractors don't have that.

Now I will give you a little advise. Of the Farmalls I listed on my farm, each and every one of them would start away with loads to be hauled on road in road gear. All you need do is start away on low side of TA and when you get some speed shift up on TA. It is a good idea to throttle back as you shift TA up in high gear, it reduces the jolt. On the field work side of the tractor use, I always stop to shift gears, which is almost never. You see, a Farmall with TA has the torque to work an implement all day and never shift anything but TA or foreward to reverse. People have always growled about Farmalls being hard to shift, and being the last to go syncramesh or power shift. Those were the people that didn't realize, Farmall had way more torque than any other tractor. Your dad is right you don't need to grind gears. Just realize how little you need to shift gears, and you will find little time is wasted stopping to shift.

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PA Steve

10-25-2004 19:40:52




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
A little grinding is going to happen no matter what you do because the gears in a tractor like the 560 are not synchronized like the gears in a car or truck transmission. However, there are some things you can do to minimize grinding. Grinding occurs when two spur gears (like in the 560) that are being brought into mesh are running at different speeds. When shifting into gear while the tractor is at rest, the gear on the output shaft of the transmission is not moving because the tractor is not moving. The gear on the input shaft is spinning until you push the clutch pedal in, then the input gear begins to slow down. If you hold the clutch a few seconds before shifting, the input gear will have some time to slow down and grinding will be minimized. When shifting from fourth to fifth on the road, you normally have the engine running pretty fast in fourth when you shift. If you shift to fifth gear at the same engine speed, you cause a speed mismatch between input and output gears that results in grinding. To minimize grinding, bump down on the throttle right after pushing the clutch in. Then shift to fifth, let the clutch out and open up the throttle again. This does take a little practice, but it will minimize grinding and transmission wear. Good luck!
Steve

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Ken S.

10-25-2004 19:24:54




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
Double clutch up and when going down R.P.M.'s has to be raised to match ground speed. My dad used to tell us to pull the torque back on our 560 to shift it easier.



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Allan in NE

10-25-2004 19:15:33




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
You are not doing anything wrong....just keep practicing and you'll get the hang of it.

Try double clutching: clutch once when you pull out of one gear, let it up and clutch again when you drop it GENTLY back indto the next.

You'll get it. Your dad is just tryin' to teach you the right way is all. Sounds like a smart man.

Allan



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Dave in CT

10-25-2004 19:14:51




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
I'll tell you right up front, I can't shift on the fly without a bit of grinding but then, I don't have a lot of experience. I've been told that you can tell someone really knows how to drive a tractor if they can shift on the fly _without_ grinding. You're right to keep asking and searching for how it's done. Hopefully someone here will be able to give you some more pointers besides practice. Try searching the archives for 'grinding' and maybe 'double-clutching'. I think there were some posts on that a few years back.

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Allan in NE

10-25-2004 19:12:33




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
You are not doing anything wrong....just keep practicing and you'll get the hang of it.

Try double clutching: clutch once when you pull out of one gear, let it up and clutch again when you drop it GENTLY back indto the next.

You'll get it. Your dad is just tryin' to teach you the right way is all. Sounds like a smart man.

Allan



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CNKS

10-25-2004 19:11:27




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to Kid with dumb question, 10-25-2004 19:01:30  
Below is a post entitled "Farmall H gears". Read it and you will see what your dad is talking about. A little grinding is inevitable, but repeated grinding results in the gears in the picture.



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steveormary

10-26-2004 10:36:14




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to CNKS, 10-25-2004 19:11:27  
If your tractor has TA pull TA lever back and start out or shift up to gear you want to travel in and then move TA lever ahead. With some practice and the good advice from this board you will do just fine.

steveormary



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steveormary

10-26-2004 10:34:19




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 Re: grinding gears in reply to CNKS, 10-25-2004 19:11:27  
If your tractor has TA pull TA lever back and start out or shift up to gear you want to travel in and then move TA lever ahead. With some practice and the good advice from this board you will do just fine.

steveormary



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