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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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6v won't turn over, 12v will

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kevin brooks

11-02-2004 10:28:09




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Recently I hooked up a new 6v battery to what was originally a 6v positive ground tractor ('51 Farmall M). The wiring had been 'reversed' and a modern 12v was installed when I found it. The 12v battery was not charging so I switched it out for a modern 6v battery. The tractor would not even turn over. I have since switched back over to a 12v battery but cannot get the battery to charge.
How can a 6v battery even work? Is the ignition coil a 12v? The starter is 6v but the battery wouldn't even turn it over, much less get ignition going. Ideas, please?

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gusc

11-02-2004 21:32:06




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to kevin brooks, 11-02-2004 10:28:09  
Kevin,

Clean all your battery cable connections. Run 12v directly to the starter bypassing all other wiring. If it cranks you have a wiring problem.

On a 12v system you must use a resistor in series with the switch wire and coil otherwise you will fry the coil. All coils are 6v that is the reason you need a resistor, either internal or external, for 12v systems. Your auto or tractor parts store can tell you which is the correct resistor for your tractor.

If your gen or reg is bad, make it simple and go to an older model internal regulator Delco (GM) three wire alternator. The problem with one wire alts is the high price and the high rpms necessary to make them charge.

If you change to a 3 wire alt I can send you instructions on hooking it up.

If you decide to keep the gen or get another gen you must polarize both the gen and reg before starting the tractor. I can tell you how to do that also, it is very simple. Running the tractor with the gen/reg at the wrong polarity can destroy both.

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little john

11-02-2004 11:52:49




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to kevin brooks, 11-02-2004 10:28:09  
Link

Bob M has generously provided these wiring diagrams.
Be sure you copy all the address...it runs off to the right.



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captaink

11-02-2004 11:21:23




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to kevin brooks, 11-02-2004 10:28:09  
Consider that originally when new a 6 volt starter worked fine. This was before high compression pistons, starters aged, bushings wore, connections corroded (both in the joints in the starter and on battery cables) heads were changed, and or other modifications were made. Consider also, that most of the time 6 volt systems when kept up still did the job. The problem was that the 6 volt systems took a lot of time to keep working properly, so someone experimented with putting a 12 volt battery in and discovered it would work.

Converting to 12 volt can mask a lot of the small problems that are creeping into the starter or connections. It could be possible that your starter has worn so bad, or that the grounding connections between the field housing, nose cone, and clutch housing have gotten rusty and not making a good enough connection for the 6 volt battery to work, but 12 volt battery will punch through it. Remember, voltage in electricity is the same as PSI in liquids, the higher the voltage the more "push" or ability to overcome resistance.

The bottom line is that the starter or connections are where you will find the reason.

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kevin brooks

11-02-2004 11:28:20




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to captaink, 11-02-2004 11:21:23  
Good point. The starter is looking pretty rusty on the outside and rumor has it that it was a rebuilt unit, so the tractor did have some issues with the starter in the not too distant past.



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old

11-02-2004 10:34:18




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to kevin brooks, 11-02-2004 10:28:09  
First are you sure the starter is 6 volt, not 12? If it is 6 volt you probaly have a wire problem. Probably to lite/small battery cables, 6 volt needs bigger cables then 12 volt. The coil will not make any differance on it turning over.



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kevin brooks

11-02-2004 11:21:08




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to old, 11-02-2004 10:34:18  
The starter has a decal/factory plating on it which reads 6v.



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Bob

11-02-2004 14:56:13




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to kevin brooks, 11-02-2004 11:21:08  
Kevin,

Your starter may have been converted to 12 Volt internals without the name plate being changed.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time that's ever happened!



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old

11-02-2004 11:24:45




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to kevin brooks, 11-02-2004 11:21:08  
you probably need bigger battery cables then



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JBlavl

11-02-2004 10:31:32




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to kevin brooks, 11-02-2004 10:28:09  
Have the wires been changed? A 6V system generally requires a larger set of cables because it is carrying a much larger current then that of a 12V system.



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kevin brooks

11-02-2004 11:22:42




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to JBlavl, 11-02-2004 10:31:32  
I suspect that some wires have been changed but most look original. This was also something I suspected.



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Harley

11-02-2004 11:10:57




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to JBlavl, 11-02-2004 10:31:32  
You should have a return policy on your new 6-volt battery. Take it back, pick up a 12-volt 1-wire alternater, turn the generater mount on the side of your engine upside down, run some 3/8 allthread through it for a mount, get a new 12-volt battery, hook it up negative ground, and be done with it. I do all mine that way, and you have no problems. Later, Harley



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captaink

11-02-2004 11:25:06




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to Harley, 11-02-2004 11:10:57  
I agree but if you go this route, you will want to make sure that you either have a 12 volt coil or have the in-line resistor to drop the voltage to 6 volts for a 6 volt coil. If the tractor was 12 volts before this should have already been done, but I would suggest verifying to prevent burning points or other high-voltage related issues.



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kevin brooks

11-02-2004 11:31:51




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to captaink, 11-02-2004 11:25:06  
So basically what you're saying is that the ignition coil (?) may be a 6v unit? I wasn't sure (and still aren't) if the ignition coil is a 6v or 12v, but looks like it is not original and was replaced sometime in the last 10yrs. Is it possible that it's a 12v coil? How the test or tell?



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captaink

11-02-2004 11:40:49




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to kevin brooks, 11-02-2004 11:31:51  
The only way that I know of is to look the coil over closely. Some are stamped with a part number that you can check or a rating like "12V" or "6V" on them.

Maybe someone else here knows of another way.



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captaink

11-02-2004 11:25:05




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to Harley, 11-02-2004 11:10:57  
I agree but if you go this route, you will want to make sure that you either have a 12 volt coil or have the in-line resistor to drop the voltage to 6 volts for a 6 volt coil. If the tractor was 12 volts before this should have already been done, but I would suggest verifying to prevent burning points or other high-voltage related issues.



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kevin brooks

11-02-2004 11:24:55




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to Harley, 11-02-2004 11:10:57  
I am returning the 6v battery tomorrow. I am leaning towards converting to a 12v system at this point. Could you expand on the one-wire 12v alternator and the hookups or direct me to a site?
Thanks.



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Harley

11-02-2004 12:56:07




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 Re: 6v won't turn over, 12v will in reply to kevin brooks, 11-02-2004 11:24:55  
Easy as falling off a log. Install the 12-volt 1-wire alternater, run 1 heavy (About 10 guage) wire back and hook it up to the battery. You should have or get a 12 volt coil which will say "built in resistor" on the side of it. Run hot wire from hot side of battery to one side of starter solenoid, on up to one side of ignition switch. Other side of switch has one wire run up to positive side of coil, and one wire over to push button starter button. Other side of push button has wire running down to middle post on starter solinoid. Other big post on solinoid has heavy cable running up to starter motor. Battery ground or negetive cable goes to frame anywhere. Also, small wire coming out of distributor, usually black, goes to negative side of coil. I have a diagram of this, and if you can follow these directions and draw one for yourself, it makes it a lot easier to follow. Hope this helps and isn't too conglomerated, Later, Harley

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