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Allan in NE-carb photo

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Paul Shuler

11-24-2004 22:04:18




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Hi Allan, these photos are not very good. I shot them at midnight in poor light and my batteries in my camera are about dead so my flash didn't work very good. It's 22 here tonight when I got off work and my problem was much worse till it warmed up to temp. Went to pull on the high way and it fell on it's face then backfired two times the took off. I have the box and the info on the carb up in my attic. If you need any of that info I'll slip up there tommorow....after turkey. Used to pheasant hunt up there a lot around Wilber. Nice people. The man and his brother I hunted on have long since passed away but I never ran into anyone but nice people up there. Except maybe that one Nebraska High way patrolman.Ha Ha

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ChadS

11-28-2004 08:22:13




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 Re: Allan in NE-carb photo in reply to Paul Shuler, 11-24-2004 22:04:18  
Sure is a good looking engine! I think you have a combination of problems going on here. Been dyno tuning engines for years now,, Auto engines, and tractors, here is few things to ponder over in what I have learned on tuning an engine in... Basicly, it is all standard procedure, in order to diaginos the problem, you have to know a few important factors. Then, once you have the cause, the cure is simple. Youll fight it,, trust me you will, LOL! My honest opinion, the Edlebrock version of the AFB is the simplest carb to ever have! When they say, jet it, and forget it, they mean it. This is a full mechanical carb, should be no vacuum accesoires to run anything for the metering stems. Most carbs like this I have ever seen has the counterweight balance to open the metering stems inthe secondaries. It is a good system. But like most aftermarket carbs,, you cant just bolt em on, and run them, they have to be tuned for the engine. Hopefully your carb checks out, rebuild kits are simple, it is easier to tear em apart, and replace the parts as you go along, aint alot to em. But, to me, a backfire, and especially on acceleration, is not a fuel problem, it is ignition. If you have put in a cam, and you have an aftermarket intake, and carb, you picked up alot of different running factors that have changed VS a bone stock, cast iron, quadra jet factory set up. First off, you have picked up alot more volume in the intake, so it will need more fuel, check you plugs, they will tell you if you are getting enough gas to it. Hesitations caused from the carb, well, they should just hesitate, like you are running out of gas, not pop out the carb, or the exhaust. That is why I say its ignition. Here is a few reasons, engine backfire through the carb,,VACUUM LEAKS, an intake valve too tight, the distributor is worn and loose. Coil and electronics are shorting, or failing, spark plugs not at proper gap, timing not set for the rpm range needed for the torque curve. If the intake valves are too tight, itll pop through the carb only upon a lug of the engine, or sudden acceleration. Itll seal upon idle, no load, but you give it the gas, and take up more gaps in the parts, .001 can be the factor of the valve being too tight, or just right. Usually, I set them to when its running, I loosen them tillthe click, tighten it till the quit, then 1/8 of a turn more onthe nut. That, I have found works well, and does not collapse the lifters. Put a vaccum guage on it, see if it is a steady reading. That will tell you if you have a leaking valve, or a vacuum leak. If the igntion timing is set at stock settings, and you have installed a bigger cam, then you have to change the base timing too. That will cause it to pop out the carb, upon acceleration, the mechanical advance in the HEI, will activate, and over advance the timing, causing a pop out the carb at certain rpms, or acceleration. it activates the igntion too early is what I am trying to say,,,, I am not a fan of the Accel super coils and caps for the chevy. I tried to run one on a drag car, and it was junk! Kept shorting in the cap, shorting and burning the rotor carbon tips in the cap. I chased that ghost for a week! I thought since it was ACELL, it was good. Nope, not the case. It takes alot of grease to ensure the Accel system, not to short out in the cap, inside the cap where the coil sits. Grease is the only thing I found that kept it sealed under the cap. Spark plug gaps could be off a tad, if the coil is working, it has a hotter spark at the plugs,, so you can open the gaps up a bit, a combination of plug gap, and too early of igntion timing will cause preigniton. POP out the carb. Try setting the timing by ear, at 3500 rpms, then see how it acts, you want a solid tone out the exhuast, no little occasional puffs, or pops at idle, that is a sign of the timing too advanced. Hope this helps a bit, I have never ever seen an engine,, freshly rebuilt, to specs, that did not have to be retuned, and retorqued, and rechecked, to make it right. and when aftermarket parts are used likr the intake, carb and igntion you are using, it makes it tougher to find it. ChadS

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Paul Shuler

11-29-2004 13:20:36




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 Re: Allan in NE-carb photo in reply to ChadS, 11-28-2004 08:22:13  
Thank you ChadS, you gave me lots of good things to look at. You mentioned it shouldn't puff and pop at the exaust when at idle and it does do this some. So I think I'll start at the timeing end. The motor is a SB 400 with Edelbrock performer carb, air gap intake and cam. I do have the Accel coil like you said and I have been through 3 burn up caps in a year. I was like you I though acell it must be good so that may be a good place to start with it.

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CBL

11-25-2004 06:06:26




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 Re: Allan in NE-carb photo in reply to Paul Shuler, 11-24-2004 22:04:18  
Paul and Allen Thanks for the pictures and the detailed overhaul of the AFB Carter. Used to have one I put on a "57 Ford 312, went through it sure run better than the old Holley. Anyway that was 40 years ago but sure brings back old thoughts. What do you have it mounted on, sure looks professional. Thanks



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Allan in NE

11-25-2004 06:22:38




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 Re: Allan in NE-carb photo in reply to CBL, 11-25-2004 06:06:26  
CBL,

I always liked that darned original AFB carb.

They were very easy to repair as they were only a two piece carb and really didn't have a lot of interworking circuits.

Their downfall was that long primary throttle shaft. It had a tendency to wobble out the bushings in the body and then the things would not idle down and maintain a proper idle speed.

I know what you mean about the Holleys, as they are a mechanical nightmare having all those little parts, gaskets and adjustments. I still liked 'em tho, probably because they made me a lot of money over the years.

Kinda like the overdrive 700R4 tranny (that was my baby). :>)

Allan

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Allan in NE

11-25-2004 05:11:03




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 Re: Allan in NE-carb photo in reply to Paul Shuler, 11-24-2004 22:04:18  
Mornin' Paul,

That carburetor is Edlebrock's remake of the old Carter AFB.

Now, maybe it is just the picture or maybe I just can't make it out, but it appears that you have some external linkage missing. This is a good thing; makes for an easy fix!

I've marked the pump plunger with a green arrow and this is the little guy that is dealin' you fits.

As the throttle shaft is rotated, that pump plunger has to move down in it's bore to give a 'squirt' of fuel at the nozzles, which are located in the primary bores just under the choke flap.

I've also marked the power valve assemblies in red. This type never gives any trouble unless you have to lift that lid off to replace the accelerator pump plunger. In this case, you need to remove these two assemblies as a first step and replace them last.

They consist of two delicate little metering rods, which are threaded down into the main metering jets. They are each attached to a little piston, which works with engine vacuum against a little spring. If you have to take 'em out, don't loose that little spring inside the piston (looks like the spring out of a ball point pen).

Vacuum holds the piston down (against it's spring) and the metering rod down into the main jet. When under acceleration, the engine vacuum drops and the spring pressure forces the piston up, pulling that metering rod out of the main jet and allowing more fuel to flow thru it.

But like I say, this just looks like trouble over with the pump plunger and that missing external linkage. Find that missing actuator rod and I think your problems are over.

If the linkage is in fact there and the actuator cam is indeed rotating with the movement of the throttle shaft, then the pump plunger has to be replaced. (Hollar back on this, as there is a little test to see if the check balls are all in place)

Sure hope this helps,

Allan

third party image

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Paul Shuler

11-26-2004 14:41:28




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 Re: Allan in NE-carb photo in reply to Allan in NE, 11-25-2004 05:11:03  
Hi Allen, got my book on this carb down today and oh man. It's 100 pages of pure confusion to me.One thing I found though in it was under stumbeling under acceleration. The linkage to the pump has two holes that you can move the linkage to and get different performance. Thought I might try that before I start tearing stuff apart. I did some more test driving today. I can hammer it in 1st 2nd or 3rd and it will never do it. In 4th you have to be very gentle with the pedal or it will loose power and start popping. Wish you lived next door I'ed bring it over and show it to you.

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Ron in Nebr

11-25-2004 08:57:30




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 Re: Allan in NE-carb photo in reply to Allan in NE, 11-25-2004 05:11:03  
Hi Allan, happy Turkey Day! From looking at both his carb pics, it appears to me that the actuating rod for the pump is indeed in place. Most likely, as you mentioned, it needs a new pump plunger. There's usually some adjustments to be made on these pumps. I always had the best luck with the actuating rod in the top hole(nearest the pivot point) on the "rocker" assembly. This'll give it the fastest response. A very critical measurement on these is how far the pump plunger itself sticks up above the main body of the carb. The pump plunger is what the little "S" shaped link is hooked to on the rear of the pump pivot "rocker" assembly. If the plunger is too high, it will uncover a slot in the main pump well that's used to feed fuel to the pump, and it won't give any pump shot until it moves low enough to cover this slot back up. There should be a measurement for this in the original instructions that came with the carb. If not, there'll be one in the carb kit that you have to buy to get the new plunger. A quick check he can perform is, with the engine OFF, looking down the primaries, move the throttle shaft slightly. There should IMMEDIATELY, with even the slightest throttle movement, be two good streams of fuel shooting out, one above each primary throttle venturi. If you can move the throttle and there isn't fuel squirting out in the venturis, OR it takes several degrees of throttle movement before the fuel starts to squirt, OR the fuel just kinda trickles out and doesnt come out in two good streams, it will result in the symptoms described. As a side note, and maybe I'm thinking of something else here, on the AFB's I've been around, at least the "Competition Series 750 AFB" that I had, there was an air valve plate above the secondarys. This was controlled by a counterbalance weight. This would only open when the engine airflow demands overcame the counterbalance weight. You could "tune" on it by grinding some off the weight, or adding weight to slow it down. Anyway, I don't see any such air valve plate above the secondarys in these pics. Maybe the 600 AFB's didn't have them? But if it's supposed to be there, and for whatever reason it's gone now, it'll sure cause those same symptoms as the secondarys open up before the engine is ready for them.

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Paul Shuler

11-25-2004 08:22:33




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 Re: Allan in NE-carb photo in reply to Allan in NE, 11-25-2004 05:11:03  
Here is a photo of the entire motor. I found a photo of the box it came out of. It's the Performer series #1406. I think it's 600 cfm but I'll have to check on that.



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Paul Shuler

11-25-2004 08:10:00




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 Re: Allan in NE-carb photo in reply to Allan in NE, 11-25-2004 05:11:03  
We are getting ready to go to the in laws for Thanksgiving so it may be late today befor I can get back to you. The only thing I have takin off was the dodad that hooked up the cruise control. I took it off cause it kept sticking and wouldn"t allow it to fall back to an idle when I stopped. Not sure if this is what your talking about or not.



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