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Super HTA? From the buyer side

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Migraine

12-13-2004 22:09:30

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Just got home from our monthly Antique Tractor club meeting and sat next to the gentleman from Wa state who purchased the serial no 504 Super H T A or whatever that thing is? He and I are both curious about those of you who have solid information on this tractor. Someone on a previous post stated that they talked to the person who built it. Was that this tractor or one similar to it? He was told that I.H. built 9 of these prototypes and this is the 4th one with the authentic serial plate on it. We all know however that for the right money any serial plate can be produced. A few questions here. Who can shed some honest light on this creature. Migraine

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Dave mn

12-14-2004 17:41:28

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Re:it is possible in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

I was reading a IH tractor history book about 2 years ago on a trip in Ill., I I swear there a a pic and short desc of a Super H TA as a less than 12 made and that most were scrapped. Just going off memory.

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Marv

12-14-2004 17:05:30

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

I attended the sale at Canton. Most everyone I talked with new the SHTA was a fraud. Thy guy next to me asked the auctioneer what year the tractor was made and his request was ignored. I took a few pictures of the tractor and will post them later.

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Brian Schmidt

12-14-2004 15:18:27

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

First of all did the buyer think he was buying a factory built unit? I personally talked to the owner at the sale on Friday and he openly told me then about the tractor and date codes. The front end has all Z casting codes and the rear-end has all A date codes. This makes it two different years for sure right off.

It would be difficult, but not impossible, to change the date codes on the castings. Ever heard of nickel rod and a die grinder??? Don't you think a pattern maker made them originally with a grinder? It would take lots of time, but would certainly be possible. I don't know if it would be worth it unless you were trying to disguise a phony and try to fool someone. To me, that is NOT what he seller did or ever implied. It was a very nicely done tractor. I didn't understand why someone would have bid $15000 on it. But it had to take two bidders to get that high right??

If the buyer took it to be an original, then was mistaken. Maybe he should have flown into Canton to view the tractor in person and talk to the owner like I did.

I know on this site the discussion took place last year when the owner had it advertised on the photo ads. At that time is was also portrayed as a �custom�, a �one-off�, or a �home built� unit.

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Hugh MacKay

12-14-2004 18:48:03

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Brian Schmidt, 12-14-2004 15:18:27

Brian: Quite correct, at least two people must have thought it worth close to $15,000. From your description it is quite possible this tractor has that much invested in it. I know a guy with 75 completely restored letter series Farmalls. 7 years ago he told me the big ones were costing close to $10,000. per tractor to restore. Complete restorations are not cheap anymore, doesn't matter what you call it in the end.

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Kelly C

12-14-2004 15:05:06

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

Feel kind of sorry for the guy. I know I have over paid for stuff before. But.... $15000 wouldnt be coming out of my squeeky coin purse with out knowing exactly what it was buying before hand.

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NDS

12-14-2004 14:25:13

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

According to IH Tractor Data Book Super H was discontinued in October 1954 so there probaly are lots of 300s with Z casting dates. In fact saw 300 with Z dates advertized in Red Power recently under heading of Make Your Own SHTA.

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John M

12-14-2004 12:50:25

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

I would hate to be him! Bet his ole lady will kill him when she finds out! $15000,man thats too much money!

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12-14-2004 12:42:42

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

Been watching this post, and wondering if the buyer is really happy with his purchase (if he in fact knows he bought a pieced together tractor). Sure sounds to me like a seller mis-represented this as a tractor which it is not. Since most seem to agree that a "Super HTA" does not exist then any attempt to sell one as such is (in my mind) misrepresentation (maybe even bordering on fraud?). Like others have said there are probably some which have been built for someones own pleasure and enjoyment but they should not be represented as anything other than that. This should not be pawned off as a "rare" tractor, but simply a home built hybrid made from production parts. Maybe one of the donor tractors was rare, but that is about as far as I would go. Just my opinion....

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Migraine

12-14-2004 11:36:47

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

I just watched a video that was sent to the buyer from the seller a few weeks ago. Very interesting and very well done (both the tractor and the video). But I don,t know any more than I did before I watched it as far as authenticity, because it is definitely a combination of Super H and 300 components. The light bar is H the lights are 300, the ta lever is on the left side and ipto on the right . No closeups of the cast wheel codes or the serial plate or casting numbers on the tractor so who knows what this thing is. Anyway we are continuing to welcome comments. criticism or solid info on the "BEAST". Thanks Migraine

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sammy the RED

12-14-2004 12:38:31

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-14-2004 11:36:47

The lights on a late Super H and 300 are the same.

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RustyFarmall

12-14-2004 12:12:22

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-14-2004 11:36:47

It is quite possible the entire tractor is a Farmall 300 or 350, but wearing sheet metal from an H. If you get close to the tractor, look for casting codes ending with the letters A, B, C, or D. These codes are on virtually every part of the tractor which is made of cast iron, not just the wheels.

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sammy the RED

12-14-2004 10:13:31

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

Come on Guy's.
It is a backyard built tractor.
It would be a ok tractor to have. But the $$$ involved you might as well get a better and bigger real Super M-TA.
My 3.5 cent's worth.

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Like To Know

12-14-2004 08:44:21

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

Wouldnt it be interersting if Super H #504 is still around yet? In my opinion Super HTA #504 is a made up tractor.

Does anyone own or know of a Super H below #509?

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Migraine

12-14-2004 08:41:02

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

This is most interesting. Keep the info coming and we should be able to determine what is comin' down here. Supposedly the plate says SH/ TA 504. If there were 8 others made, anybody know where they are or who has them? Somebody knows somebody who knows something! We are not insinuating that the buyer is backing away from the tractor, only would like to know _--the rest of the story--Migraine

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12-14-2004 13:46:01

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-14-2004 08:41:02

If memory serves me correctly and someone jump in if I am wrong, but wasn't there only one prototype built by IH, and wasn't it supposedly destroyed by IH? That pretty much would eliminate there being 9 built, and any left around.

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Paul in Mich

12-14-2004 07:00:08

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

Migraine, I aint saying it is, and I aint saying it isn"t, but gut feeling tells me it is a fraud. Not that the tractor isnt unique and utile as well as collectable as a conversation piece, but what raises the red flag is this. Having serial number 504 would indicate that it was at the beginning of the production run of the super H as opposed to the end of the production run where it would be more likely to see the same T.A. that appeared on the ensuing 300. I would follow Hugh and Rusty"s advice and check closely the casting date codes to see if they match. If the casting which houses the T.A. post dates the rest of the tractor meaning that casting was made in 1955 or later, it would indicate that that casting came from a 300 or 350 as no Super H"s were made beyond 1954. Remember, many folks have gotten very creative with some of the old iron, which is fine and dandy, but I believe they cross the line by trying to pass some of the stuff off as rare factory pieces. Carefull pre-purchase homework can prevent a buyer from paying more than real value when confronted with one of these situations. Personally, I would be very suspect in this case.

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David Brockley

12-14-2004 05:00:26

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

I posted the first info on the sale of this tractor to try to get some actual documation on its orgin. I wonder how the seller represented it to the buyer? Did they sell it as a factory built SHTA or just a SH "with" TA? very interesting but I would need some facts to warrant that kind of money. It did have a nice new serial plate. I put new serial plates on some older tractors of mine that the plates are missing but always use the same number that is stamped on the transmission.

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Hugh MacKay

12-14-2004 07:47:49

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to David Brockley, 12-14-2004 05:00:26

David: Other than serial plates, the only place a serial number appears is on the engine and even that is stamped on a flat machined surface. No letters or numbers cast in place are serial numbers. Not on Farmalls anyhow.

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David Brockley

12-14-2004 11:14:40

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-14-2004 07:47:49

I didn"t say I put new serial plates on Farmalls or that their serial # were stamped on them but some tractors have the model and serial # stamped on the transmission case. I think its great they have it stamped, many times the serial plate is missing and this gives you a way to identify them.

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RustyFarmall

12-14-2004 04:29:24

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

I have to agree with Hugh McKay who posted below, check out those casting codes, the codes would be just about the only part of the tractor that can not lie.

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BigDiesel

12-14-2004 04:12:56

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

this isn't about the SHTA, but i went to an auction friday and the owner had a Farmall 300, just a plain Jane, no T/A or IPTO. it looked like a Super H with 300 sheetmetal. I never knew IH made one like that. Some people thought that someone put 300 sheetmetal on a SH. I bid the tractor to $1850 , sold for $1900.

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Novel Idea Guy

12-14-2004 08:21:15

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to BigDiesel, 12-14-2004 04:12:56

TA and IPTO were optional. However, I don't think they had special rear end castings; they just replaced the TA unit with a straight shaft and covered up the holes in the transmission casting.

The other possiblity here is that it was a 300 front with a Super H rear end.

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Hugh MacKay

12-14-2004 11:59:19

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Novel Idea Guy, 12-14-2004 08:21:15

Guy: Your right 300 without TA or IPTO used the same castings for rear end, transmission and torque tube as did 300 equiped with TA and IPTO.

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Hugh MacKay

12-14-2004 02:23:35

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

Migraine: After that serial number go to the casting codes. Serial numbers can be changed, but it would be imposible to change those casting codes without detection.

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gene b

12-14-2004 01:32:07

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

There are several of these hybraids running around and have been appearing at shows for the last few yrs. First one i saw was from western IOWA in a show at MADISION SOUTH DAK. simce then several more show up here and there. There is a mechanic near-by who has an order for one to build. Last time i talked to him he had almost all parts and was going to start. So if someone thinks that I-H built such a thing they are badly mistaken. Just like the story of a SUPER B. Now about that bridge i have for sale.

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Super A

12-14-2004 08:20:38

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Super B=Frameall? in reply to gene b, 12-14-2004 01:32:07

I recall reading about it in Red Power, probably 5 years ago. Former IH employee, was telling of the tractor being used on an IH Exec's farm in Ohio, I think it was 1945 or so. Included pictures of the tractor. It had the prototype touch control unit as seen on some of the Frameall A's/Super A prototypes. In his article he referred to it as a "Super B" but I wonder if "Frameall B" would have been more correct?

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26Red

12-13-2004 22:42:20

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

The infamous Super Hta was never built by IH. Any so called prototypes were not your standard 300 TA housings. In the Red power magazine, Guy Fay did a whole investigation into the rumored HTA by researching the IH archives. The article printed, had the only factory photograph of a H with a TA...which was test unit that was destroyed. The clutch housing and TA housing were completely different that the existing 300 series. It sounds like the tractor that was sold, has been built by combining a super h with a 300 rearend. Now if it was really serial number 504 of the Super H series- that would make it collectable. But with new reproduction serial no. tags available, who know what this guy bought- glad I wasn"t the one taken!

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Jonboy

12-13-2004 22:24:11

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Migraine, 12-13-2004 22:09:30

As far as I know, IH never built any HTA's, and the only way I have ever heard of an H getting a T/A was to swap a H rearend for one off a 300.

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IHman1256

01-12-2005 21:02:45

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Re: Super HTA? From the buyer side in reply to Jonboy, 12-13-2004 22:24:11

There was never a shta made, the only one was a test mule that was actually a prototype converted from an H not a super. The tractor was torn apart after testing to check parts for problems. Have a fella in our area that swears to everyone that his "shta" is the real deal. I hate liars!!!

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