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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Hydraulic (pwr. steering) problem - will this work

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fixitforfree

01-07-2005 20:08:07




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I have a 364 diesel that has the dual hydraulic pump setup - 2 seemingly identical pumps mounted back to back. 1 pump runs lift, 1 pump runs the power steering. They are getting weak. Can I simply buy a pump that fit the 444 diesel (similar to my 364)and plumb it to supply both the lift and the power steering? Why do I need 2 pumps - they cost $500 to replace vs. $250 for the single pump to fit the 444. My buddies 444 made me wonder. It has the same pump as my front pump yet it has enough flow to supply his lift and steering. But, the 444"s steering cylinder setup is different, under the engine where mine is on the left side running parallel with the tractor. What am I missing here, will this work? IH part #704330R95 for "single" 444 pump
IH part #3063911R93 for "dual" 364, 354 pump

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Gerald J.

01-07-2005 20:28:17




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 Re: Hydraulic (pwr. steering) problem - will this in reply to fixitforfree, 01-07-2005 20:08:07  
With a single pump you want a priority flow valve to guarantee hydraulic power for the power steering all the time.

Gerald J.



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fixitforfree

01-08-2005 06:59:02




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 Just thought of something .... in reply to Gerald J., 01-07-2005 20:28:17  
I bet the priority flow valve on a 444 is located in the valving under the steering column isn't it? In other words, the priority flow valve is part of a much more complex arrangement on the 444 so simply getting one off a salvage 444 won't work will it? My 364 has none of that valving under the steering column like many tractors do.I wonder if a simple, adjustable priority flow valve can be purchased for a reasonable price through a hyd. supplier? Have you ever seen one?

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fixitforfree

01-08-2005 06:47:44




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 Re: Hydraulic (pwr. steering) problem - will this in reply to Gerald J., 01-07-2005 20:28:17  
I'm assuming without a priority flow valve, all the fluid will be simply flowing through the lift when not using it because it will be less resistance than going through the power steering cyl.- not giving you power steering. When lifting something the fluid would see less resistance through the power steering so you would have pwr. steering only while lifting - not a good scenerio. Is this a correct assumption? Thus a priority flow valve assures an ample amount of fluid flows to the pwr. steering all the time regardless of lift being used or not giving you pwr. steering in all cases? Don't tractors like the 444 with 1 hyd. pump doing both duties have to have a priority flow valve from the factory? If this is so, seems I could just locate a "salvage" priortiy valve off a 444, "T" my line and go with it. Do the priority valves have an adjustment? If not, I assume a setting for the 444 would be fine for the steering cyl on my 364? My 364 has a pressure relief valve in the power steering circuit. So if I "T" the line from the front pump, go through the priority flow valve I need to get, then through the press. relief valve aleady on my tractor, then to the cyl. it seems it would work fine. You agree or am I making this too simple? Bottom line is, in a gear pump, gear thickness, diameter and rpm all determine output (gpm). I know a 444's single pump that does lift and pwr. steering is just like my 364's front pump that only does my lift. So, apparently, since 7.6gpm is good enough for the 444's lift and steering, it should be good enough for my 364. Make suggestions if I am missing something. This seems too simply. It seems IH instead of simply using 1 pump and a priority flow valve on my 364 they opted for an entirely different steering pump just to avoid using a priority flow valve. That seems a little crazy. An extra pump is much more complex in the system than a simple priority valve isn't it?

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Mac

01-08-2005 17:20:42




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 Re: Hydraulic (pwr. steering) problem - will this in reply to fixitforfree, 01-08-2005 06:47:44  
Priority flow divider would have to put out same as 364 pump or steering would be sluggish I imagine. There are adj PFD you could make work, if pump produced enough gpm for both circuits. Need to research flow for both 364 pumps and see if it can be produced from 444 pump. May be other drive/driven gear combinations for 444 pump to provide more flow also.



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fixitforfree

01-09-2005 06:22:31




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 Re: Hydraulic (pwr. steering) problem - will this in reply to Mac, 01-08-2005 17:20:42  
Mac, I see your point. The single pump on the 444 is 7.6gpm as is my front (lift) pump. My steering cylinder/setup is totally different than the 444 but why would it require more flow than the 444's setup? I mean, if my lift pump is 7.6gpm, and I have a totally seperate pwr. strg. pump it seems my lift pump at 7.6gpm wouldn't be enough to handle the pwr. strg. duties and the lift. If it could, why did IH use a seperate pwr. strg. pump? But a 7.6gpm pump on the 444 handles both duties. You see what I am saying? I just hate to march out and buy a new 444 pump for $250 (will bolt right up to my 364) and a $70 adjustable priority flow valve, only to plumb it all and see it doesn't work correctly. I found an adj. priority flow divider valve in a hyd. catalog that says it's for "use in applications where 2 circuits are to be supplied by a single pump such as power steering systems. Inlet flow is divided into 2 flows: priority flow remains CONSTANT, excess flow to another circuit. Priority flow is adj from 2-14gpm". Sounds like it will work if the 7.6gpm pump is up to the task.

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Bernard le mécano

01-09-2005 20:04:06




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 Re: Hydraulic (pwr. steering) problem - will this in reply to fixitforfree, 01-09-2005 06:22:31  
Hi, you have a good idea. You can run your 364 with a single pump. Your hitch system may be slower by the flow for the steering. A friend of mine have a 275 with a home made power-steering from a valve and cylinder from a old truck.He have a flow-divider with a relief valve, to allow 1500 psi and 2.5 gpm to the steering. On your 364, it have a relief valve in the box where the hoses gone to the cylinder. Bernard le mécano Québec Canada

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fixitforfree

01-10-2005 05:44:51




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 Re: Hydraulic (pwr. steering) problem - will this in reply to Bernard le mécano, 01-09-2005 20:04:06  
Thanks Bernard. Thanks for the response concerning your friends settings to his power steering. I was wondering how much flow and pressure it would require. I guess 2.5gpm @ 1500psi works for his 275, it should be in the ballpark for my 364. Doesn't his 275 have the same "single" pump setup as a 444 like I want to go to?



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