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Riverbend

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CNKS

01-30-2005 14:55:29

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If the link doesn't work, I am referring to your answer on page 3 or 4 about rocker arms. My rocker arm tips are shaped something like \_/ (not to scale). In other words there is not a continuous curve, but sort of V shaped with a flat bottom -- or, are you talking only about the flat bottom part, which I think is also at an angle? All three of the V parts vary a lot from rocker to rocker. Thinking about having them machined -- may have to buy one new rocker for a pattern?

rocker arm radius

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Opa A

01-31-2005 12:21:52

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Re: Riverbend in reply to CNKS, 01-30-2005 14:55:29

Our local engine machine shop used to always dress the tips of rockerarms if worn. Was no big deal to him and didn't cost much to do (15 years ago). Any good head shop or machine shop should be able to handle it. As for the bushings they have to be in pretty bad ashape before they will effect anything, just as long as there is no major scorring. Some ford 361 shaft mounted rockers would actually start to hang up & not let the valve spring close the valve quick enough to hold compression while running, but those are the only engines I've seen with that problem. Your machinest will point you in the right direction. Or check out your dealers service dept to see that they say.

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lee

01-31-2005 11:16:36

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Re: Riverbend in reply to CNKS, 01-30-2005 14:55:29

too bad we can't see a pic. I think you are overly concerned about the rocker tips (not having seen them). You say these are stamped steel parts. Two pieces welded together. The rocker tip area at the valve would or should be hardened. Is there a separate wear pad welded there? Even if .030 had to dressed off that tip it would not affect geometry significantly. Don't forget the rocker ratio working in your favor to reduce the net affect at the pushrod. In fact, it could work to improve geometry. Any time you have a valve job the valves are set deeper in the head due to grinding the seats. Odds are unless the machinist made correction at the valve tip, the valve tips are taller in the head than they would be otherwise. They may even be at significantly different heights if the machinist has ignored this dimension. This would tip the rocker back toward the pushrod. Dressing the rocker tip would tend to tip it back the other way toward the valve. There is adjustment at the push rod.
I would not mill the pedistals. You just need to get those rocker tips smooth again with a contour similar to original. They don't need to be exactly the same say within .030. If you cannot dress them smooth and be comfortable with the result, they should be replaced. Just my opinion.

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CNKS

01-31-2005 13:28:34

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Re: Riverbend in reply to lee, 01-31-2005 11:16:36

Someday I'll buy a camera, would be handy at times like this. The rocker tip is pressed or welded in, I'll vote for pressed at the moment, but I have no idea how IH assembled them. My \_/ diagram is not that exagerated (sp?), except that the bottom of the tip is shorter than the sides. there are acually 2 edges, the sides taper down at maybe 20-30 degrees, so the only place they rocker tips can run smoothly on the valve stem is the flat area between the v shapes.

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lee

01-31-2005 12:06:44

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Re: Riverbend in reply to lee, 01-31-2005 11:16:36

I would also comment that a reamer would tend to restore out of round back to round. That is the nature of the tool within reason to take a roughly drilled hole to the next level of precision, to at minimum within .002 on size typical. I don't think you have to bore the bushings but they should be reamed at minimum on a drill press or Bridgeport mill, the latter machine could also be used to bore them. If you ream or bore these to clean up you then need oversize shafts and pedistals altered as well.

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brtx

01-30-2005 20:23:44

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Re: Riverbend in reply to CNKS, 01-30-2005 14:55:29

cnks how much clearance do you have between the rocker arm and shaft?how much would you have if you just replaced the shaft? i would be very leery of reeming the bushings if the bushings are egg shaped. if your machinist could do it on the lathe and keep your holes inproper alignment that may be the way to go.or at least a possibility. if your bushings would fit better that is another possibility. the radius has to be round and smooth so it can move as the valve is pushed down.you could try the belt sander as long as you can keep away from grinding the worn or flat surface.talk to your machinist about it.if you have really excessive wear on the rocker ends he should be able to mill the approximate wear off the base of the rocker assy pedestals where they mate with the block.that would keep the rocker radius hitting the valve ends in the same area as a new one would or close to it.at the rate its going you could have bought another tractor with a good engine swapped them out and be farther ahead.out of curiosity how much oil pressure did the engine have? i hear a lot on the site about oil pressure not being that high on the letter series.makes me wonder just what the minimum should be.keep us posted on your progress.

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CNKS

01-31-2005 08:29:06

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Re: Riverbend in reply to brtx, 01-30-2005 20:23:44

brtx, Roundness of the bushings -- my cheap caliper indicates they are ok, when I pick up my block, head, and crank, probably this week, I am going to have the machinist measure them exactly so I know for sure. If out of tolerance I'm sure they can be reamed -- but -- The 460 Hi Utility is a "relatively" rare tractor, I'm really not interested in looking for another one since this one can be fixed, the numbers match, etc, etc. As to oil pressure, I have not run the tractor that much, I don't even think the oil pressure gauge worked. I bought it to fix up as a hobby. Compression was low on all cylinders, excessively low on two, the wet test indicated it needed at a minimum, rings, lot of smoke out of the breather tube. Decided to check everything out, crank was out of tolerance, camshaft was worn, etc, about $1000 worth of engine parts, including a complete engine kit, rebuilt cam and lifters, excluding the rockers, and machine work, etc. The tractor will be (Is) totally disassembled, cleaned to bare metal, all parts will be painted separately. All hydraulic lines etc are removed for painting. When I get done the only thing mechanically wrong will be that the transmission gears are worn, but not enough to justify replacing them. THAT is why I am trying to figure out whether to replace the rockers, or have them machined, or whatever. There is "only" $700 more that I have to spend to get new rockers, shafts, and pushrods, that is a relatively small percentage of my total restoration cost, but it's still $700. I apologize for all the babbling. At this point I am more concerned about the variation and wear of the individual rocker tips, will try to find out when I pick my other parts up.

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riverbend

01-31-2005 07:21:53

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Re: Riverbend in reply to brtx, 01-30-2005 20:23:44

I think that the low oil pressure in the letter series is due to reliability and wear. Everything wears out, but those tractors would just keep running, so no one fixed anything. I put bearings in my H last year. The oil pressure is in the middle of the gauge when it is warmed up at idle.

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riverbend

01-30-2005 18:48:06

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Re: Riverbend in reply to CNKS, 01-30-2005 14:55:29

I was only thinking about the bottom flat part. You will probably have to buy a new rocker as a pattern to duplicate the original tip.

If all the rockers are worn and worn differently, something else seems wrong. I don't think that I have ever seen a rocker arm that had significant wear. I had my '40 H apart last year and the rockers looked fine. In my '83 S-10 with 415,000 miles, they looked okay. '79 Chevy 350 w/150,000, etc.

Are the welded rockers a known problem in the 460 motor ? Does everybody see lots of wear ? If so, maybe there is another problem or the rocker arm should be a different shape. Too bad a new set is so expensive - a set of roller rockes for a small block Chevy is only $150. It probably won't make a lot of difference, but not having to fix things twice is nice.

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CNKS

01-30-2005 19:26:01

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Re: Riverbend in reply to riverbend, 01-30-2005 18:48:06

I think they were badly out of adjustment sometime in the past -- a couple have what looks to me like impact grooves from the valve stems. Going to take them to a machinist and see what he says. Also going to replace the rocker shafts, and get the rocker bushings measured accurately, my cheap caliper says they are about right, but not sure. Thanks for your help.

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brtx

01-30-2005 20:35:54

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Re: Riverbend in reply to CNKS, 01-30-2005 19:26:01

cnks just as a caution if he does mill the pedestel base make sure you have the clearance for your rockers to move but not hit anything.just read your last post.i think that is the smart way to go.did a lot of 345 engines in scout in my younger years and of course they were a lot newer also,but the rockers were never a real problem.from what you have seen of the bushings do you think they are replacable without taking the rocker apart.curiousand that was 30 plus years ago.good luck with it

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CNKS

01-31-2005 08:40:57

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Re: Riverbend in reply to brtx, 01-30-2005 20:35:54

I don't think the pedestals need to be milled. IH says the rocker bushings are not replacable, but the IHCparts.com truck site sells bushings (C221 is a variant of the Black Diamond truck engine) -- That's something else I need to ask the machinest, however, he says he doesn't do rockers -- there are others in town. The rockers consist of two stamped steel pieces (at least I think they are stamped, ignorant about different types of metal preparation) welded together side to side, I don't know yet if the bushing is actually welded or simply pressed in. It appears to me that if it takes a lot of pressure to remove the bushings, if they are not welded, that it would be possible to bend the rocker, I don't know.

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