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2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas

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Bill in NC

02-20-2005 12:45:29




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While turning dirt with my 140 yesterday, got to thinking about today's gas versus the gas the C-123 motor design was drinking back in the 1930's. I knew an old-timer who said there was a lot of aviation gas formulation changes during WWII as planes added superchargers and flew to high altitudes. Has gasoline formulations and octane aspects changed much since the 1930's? I put 87 octane regular gas in my Farmall. It seems to do okay, but I've always heard to put premium gas in two stroke motors like boat motors and weed eaters, etc. Anybody got any insights as to today's fuel versus the stuff our tractors originally drank back in the 30's, 40's and 50's?

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zooeyhall

02-21-2005 09:23:26




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to Bill in NC, 02-20-2005 12:45:29  
I have an H, M, and 303 combine with C221 engine that all run gas. I have experienced some exhaust valve seat regression on my M (the one I run the most and do the hardest pulling with).

A few years back, the government mandated that the volatility of gasoline be reduced. I have noticed since then that, when cold, my tractors and combine experience a good deal of "sputtering' and stalling when first running. After being warmed up things seem to be ok.

I use 10 percent ethanol blend in my tractors, especially my M which has high-compression pistons. I have noticed that it has cut down on the "diesling" on shut-off I experienced with Regular gas. Ethanol gas has about 89 octane, as compared to 87 for Regular and 92 for Premium. It is a good compromise, running better than Regular and not as pricey as Premium.

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Paul in Mich

02-20-2005 16:29:59




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to Bill in NC, 02-20-2005 12:45:29  
Probably the biggest difference in todays gasolene and that of 30 or 40 years ago is the lead content which is virtually non existant today. Back 40 years ago it was necessary to have lead added to reduce pre-ignition and to enhance valve lubrication. While lead is no longer used, the refineries have discovered and added other properties to accomplish the same end result as adding lead, which was less environmentally friendly. When I had my 57 Chevy I had to add an additive available at NAPA and other automotive supply stores to todays gasolene to keep the engine from spark knocking (283 ci). I have 2 antique tractors that run just fine on today"s gas. I have had people tell me that I should use an additive for valve lubrication, but then again others have told me it doesnt matter. I would suppose that the low R.P.M.s of the old Letter series Farmalls don"t require the additive as would a higher RPM, higher compression engines used in automobiles.

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PAULIH300

02-20-2005 16:43:28




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to Paul in Mich, 02-20-2005 16:29:59  
There are a number of reasons why lead type additives are not needed on yesterdays tractors....Low RPM is one,the speed of the valves closing is slow....Low lift camshafts,unlike hopped up musclecars the cam profile on tractors is rather mild and keeps the valves from opening wide and slamming shut hard....Low compression,usually in the 6.0-7.0:1 range,whereas cars are usually 8.0-9.5:1,low compression means less heat less preignition,less stress....High Lead buildup,over the years so much lead has accumulated on valves and seats,further lubrication is not needed.

Besides,when a rebuild is needed,hardened seats and valves can be installed to solve the problem forever.

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Hugh MacKay

02-20-2005 14:50:49




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to Bill in NC, 02-20-2005 12:45:29  
Bill: I got on my first tractor seat in 1948 at 6 years of age. That was a W4 my dad bought new in 1942. My job was driving the tractor pulling wagon and loose hay loader. My grandfather had always done that job, but the hired hands on the load were unwilling to tolerate his quick clutch foot. I was put on probation and told if I wanted to keep the job my clutch foot had to be softer than my grandfathers.

Since that time I can see very little difference in the performance of a particular tractor. It doesn't matter whether the tractor is gas or diesel. The big difference I do see is the newer engines have no torque. Some of the tractors built in the last 20 years are pure junk alongside most of the tractors built in 50s,60s and 70s. Todays farmer talks about power shift, they sure as H#$% need it. Gone are the days when you could stick an old Farmall in the right gear for the job at 6am and go all day.

I was helping a friend, late 90s, had an 886 with the 360 American diesel, also had a new CaseIH with 5.9 Cummins and 3 or 4 power shifts. I operated thr 886 for a few days on a new 16' tandem disk. He thought he would treat me to the new CaseIH. When I got there in morning he had it hooked to disk. At noon he asked (with his chest out a foot) how I liked the new tractor. I said give me back the 886, I might get some disking done. You guys can have the gutless wonder. No dice, I went back to field with CaseIH. In about 1 hour he showed up in his pickup, and said, "Let me show you how to drive this thing." Crowded me into corner of cab and proceeded. I reached over and shifted power shift up, tractor died before he could get his foot on clutch. He said, " what did you do that for." I said, "886 was pulling the disk at 5 mph and never had to use TA, I just shifted this contraption to 5mph, and it died." Well he got really annoyed, out of the tractor, jumped in his 4x4 Chevy diesel and tramped the accelerator hard he burried her right there in the loose soil. Wouldn't even come out in 4x4. I had to hook on with chain and tow him.

Next morning I had the 886 back, about mid morning I saw CaseIH service truck pull up to the new tractor. That new CaseIH did not stay on that farm. I can tell you countless other stories. In the past two years I have driven new 125 to 135 hp Deeres, CaseIHs and Ford NH. None of them will hold a candle to my old 1066.

In fact I loaned that 1066 to a friend with a new 4630 way back when. 1066 had 8,000 hours on clock at time. When he brought it home he said, " It makes that Damn Deere look sick." Near as I can tell a horsepower aint a horsepower anymore.

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Bill in NC

02-20-2005 16:10:46




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-20-2005 14:50:49  
Hugh,
Do you reckon the applied power differences between yesterday's and today's tractors relates to higher revving shorter-stroke motors set for lower emissions?



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Hugh MacKay

02-20-2005 17:01:36




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to Bill in NC, 02-20-2005 16:10:46  
Bill: Really don't want to voice an opinion as to why. What I do see is tractor, truck, etc. not as productive as a comparable unit of 30 years ago. Some of these enviormental efficiency experts have a lot of one sided equasions. Kind of like the low water volume toilet, yes it takes 25% less water for a flush, but in most cases you must flush twice. Or the trucker on here the other night, he was told his new truck would give 1 mpg less than his 4 year old truck. Now if it's going to take more fuel, it will also require more oxygen to burn that extra fuel. I for one think we will run out of oxygen long before the emissions get us.

I remember an accident number of years back, crew had a gasoline pump operating in a manhole. Pump was not operating very well so one guy went down to make it run better. He faltered much like the engine. A second guy went down to help the first guy. They both perished. Finding of the inquest stated that lack of oxygen, not monoxide was cause of death. Since the beginning of the industrial revolution we have reduced the oxygen content in our atmosphere from 40% down to roughly 18% in 2005. Only two things going to work, our engines suck in less oxygen and we grow more lushous green plants to replace the oxygen.

I'd be willing to bet if our offset Farmalls were tuned up and sent off to Nebraska tests they would do just as well on todays fuel as they did all those many years ago.

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Michael Soldan

02-20-2005 13:11:01




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to Bill in NC, 02-20-2005 12:45:29  
Hey Bill, good question, the first thing I thought of was 19.9 vs $1.56.9. I'm guessing octane still has eight carbons attached to the oxygen and Hydrogen. Colour is much clearer today and no lead additives, we need a chemist to tell us what has changed ( other than the price)..Mike in Exeter Ontario



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Bill in NC

02-20-2005 13:01:04




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to Bill in NC, 02-20-2005 12:45:29  
Correction: C-113 motor in the 1930's (later to be expanded to 123 cubic inches and known as the C-123). At any rate, just curious if fuel has changed much and if so, has it changed engine output?



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PAULIH300

02-20-2005 13:32:20




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to Bill in NC, 02-20-2005 13:01:04  
Gasoline today gasses off far faster than the old days.The oxygenated additives added for cleaner burning take away from the fuels octane level.Octane actually resists knock and ping,and doesnt raise HP unless timing is advanced to take advantage of the less volatile mix.Todays fuels lack Tetraethyl lead,and that kills octane and lubrication.Lots of problems associated with new fuels have taken place over the past 10 years.Spark plug companies have had to raise heat ranges to make the plug fire/run right(Champion most of all).Todays fuels are nothing compared to the 50s,60s and even the 70s.Have an old musclecar? Dont expect anything close to 300hp from one without some serious changes.Blame the EPA,and the huge number of internal combustion engines out there.Their population has created pollution problems in big cities,and the EPAs knee jerk reaction was to tack on all these emission devices and weaken the fuels.Diesel fuel has been tampered with too for years....its coming quickly where old diesels will not run on new fuel at all.Once the sulphur is all taken out,injector pump/injector seals are going to dry out at rapid rates.

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JT

02-20-2005 14:51:05




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 Re: 2005 Gasoline Versus 1930's Gas in reply to PAULIH300, 02-20-2005 13:32:20  
Talking about diesels, my 2000 ford, won't run worth a hoot on diesel fuel sold at the pumps. It needs a cetane rating of 45-50 and most fuel stations are lucky if theirs is over 40. So, I have been putting additives in to raise it at least 6 points, seems to have helped a little. I know the long term effect will help.



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