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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Super A /140

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Al Sandholm

03-13-2005 15:42:49




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Are the heads from a 140 and Super A interchangable?




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Hugh MacKay

03-13-2005 19:44:43




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to Al Sandholm, 03-13-2005 15:42:49  
Al: Besides what gene has told you, Super A has a 9 bolt head and the 140 has a 14 bolt head.



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Stan(VA).

03-14-2005 08:33:13




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-13-2005 19:44:43  
Gene and Hugh,
I realize the 140 was built for 20 yrs and I may not know about latter changes, but at least the early 140 motors that I worked with do still have the 9 bolt heads. The water pump arangement is different but that change is on the front of the block, not the head. ie: the 140 and Super A block is not interchangeable without changing the pump and all the accessories on the front end, but the head should interchange fine.

It will bump his power up as it is a smaller combustion chamber and bigger valves. It also has a different manifold and larger carb that won't line up with his original air cleaner. To keep it looking stock, use your original manifold/carb/air cleaner, but do a little port matching on the manifold to head. Otherwise I think you could swap in all 3 parts from the 140 as well for a better power improvement. This is conjecture, but only caution I can think of is if it has a factory firecrator S&P set that expects the larger combustion chamber it might interfere with the head, but I doubt it.
Stan(VA).

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Hugh MacKay

03-14-2005 11:51:52




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to Stan(VA)., 03-14-2005 08:33:13  
Stan: I have no way of knowing when the exact date of change over to the 14 bolt head occured but it's got to be in 1959 at the latest, the second year of 140 production, in fact quite early that year. The change over came at C-123 engine serial number 65001.

My 1958 Farmall 130 s/n 9313 with engine s/n 56651, while my 140 has s/n 22157 and engine s/n 102230. If you consider the fact these engines were being used in 130, 230, 140, 240, tractors plus swathers and combines at the rate of about 9,116 engines per year. Since my 130 is a very early 1958 model one can assume the 9 bolt head engines were all gone by early 1959. Remember only 8,350 9 bolt head engines were built after my 130 engine. At the very most maybe 4,000 of the 140 tractors may have 9 bolt heads. The question is how many 130, 230, combines and swathers were built in 1958. It could have used all of those engines. I have never seen a 140 with 9 bolt head.

I do know my 130 has the original engine, and further can tell you on both my 130 and 140 the casting codes back up the fact they are both complete original tractors.

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Stan(VA).

03-14-2005 21:04:52




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-14-2005 11:51:52  
Hugh,
I went back to the books on this one. Have you had your 140 apart? Or what is the assumption of a 14 bolt head based on? If you are basing it on the motor having the new design with the different water pump arrangement, I don't think they are related. If you have actually counted the bolts and found 14, then I am clueless. Below is what I have found from time in the parts books (CDROM) and actually pulling several motors apart.

What I glean from going through my parts CDROM is that the C123 designated block starts on the hundred series with C123-501.


C123 501-36000 as used in x00 has block 354898 and head 251172/355046*

C123 36001-65000 used in x30 has block 366204 and head 355046/366299*

C123 65001-up as used in x40 has block 367825 and head 366299

notes:
* - all are gas head numbers. Head change dates are unclear from parts book, but 251172 is as on C/Super C, 355046 has larger valves as in 366299. I haven't seen a 355046 yet so don't really know how they fit in the mix.
- all C123's (and C135's from the 330/340) show the same head gasket 366300
- new water pump design (meaning new block) at 65001
- all heads listed as 9 bolts, with a split at 39400 as head studs changed to head bolts.
- C135 as used in the 330/340 shows 367727 block, 366299 head with 9 bolts and head gasket 366300
- C135 as used in the 404 shows 375596 block, 379240 head with 14 bolts and head gasket 383525
- C135 in 404 also shows different crankshaft/rods/bearings/rear mail seal retainer.

Engines I have pulled apart at the moment are:
- a 230 (ser num 39465) (block verifies, head can't read casting number but has large valves, looks same as 140 below) 9 bolt head;
- a 140 (ser num 101390) (block verifies, head 366299). Casting date 5-25-H (1962) tractor ser num 20874, 9 bolt head;
- a C135 (ser number 128346) power unit block (casting date'T', with late style crank/rods/rear main seal) set up for 14 bolt head (I don't have the head).

Also had a 240 U motor here a year ago with 'E' (1959) casting date, block and head numbers matched the 140 motor.

This 140 is only about 1000 away from yours, so I would be surprised to see a change since the parts books don't note anything near those numbers. I'm interested to hear what you find on your side.

If possible to read the casting numbers on the heads of your 130 and 140 that would be great too (since I can't read my 230). It's cast on a narrow edge right where the manifold bolts on in the center over the exhaust ports for cylinders number 2 and 3, but very difficult to read. You can see it if you remove the hood. Anyways this is how I've concluded that the C123's are all 9 bolt heads and and the C135's are where the split occurred.
Stan(VA).

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Hugh MacKay

03-15-2005 03:38:02




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to Stan(VA)., 03-14-2005 21:04:52  
Stan: What I can tell you at this hour of the morning. When I got the 140 two years ago it was not running. The previous owner had screwed up the complete electrical system. I had to replace points, condencer, cap and rotor, none of them were even the right ones not even close. Then generator, regulator, battery, amp gauge and even some wiring. Battery was in backwards. As I got the tractor going, I'm certain he tried his hand at valve adjusting as well. He had the tractor in a heated warehouse ten years and never got it going. Seeing how the valves were set, I,m just as happy he never did get it started.

My neighbor and I went to pick up tractor . We took points, condenser, rotor, cap, heavy 12 volt battery and fresh gas. Within 10 min we had it going well enough to load on his trailer

So one of the first items I got into after getting it home was valve setting. Of course one of the first things I noticed was change in head bolt pattern from any other offset Farmall I'd ever worked on. The only manual I have speciffically for the 140 is an IT service manual, which suggests the change came at C-123 engine serial number 65001. In reviewing my 130 and 140 tractor and engine serial numbers, and knowing the uses made of C-123 engines, it made sence to me the change probably occured with the model change to 140 and 240.

Since that time I never gave it another thought until this discussion. I doubt if I ever have to as I rather doubt this tractor has seen 500 hour mark yet on hours of service. I will try and find the numbers you ask for. My shop is not heated so, I'm not taking anything apart.

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Stan(VA).

03-15-2005 07:21:02




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-15-2005 03:38:02  
Hugh,
I don't have heated shop space either so I completely understand ;) I will try to get some pictures of the stuff I have here and send those to you by email later today. Basically if you look between the manifold and the valve cover, on the 9 bolt head you will only see 4 bolts, while on the 14 bolt head you will see 7 bolts.
Stan(VA).



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Hugh MacKay

03-15-2005 08:24:59




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to Stan(VA)., 03-15-2005 07:21:02  
Stan: I already know this 140 is 14 bolt head, that is the difference I noticed when adjusting valves. I was into the water pump and rad before I ever got to the starting process. They had also left this tractor way down in coolant all those years thus I had to rebuild the water pump and recore the rad. I really don't understand how it held coolant as the shaft on pump could be moved about 1/8" sideways and the portion of rad core that had been above coolant level was almost like ashes. I had filled it with coolant when we had it going for loading, and it never leaked. The rad supports were broken at top and grill was pushed back about 2.5" at top. The leaks started as I tried to put this all back in place. The sheet metal was in perfect condition, just pushed back at top. I understand tractor went through gable end of plastic greenhouse, before being parked 10 years before.

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Jim Becker

03-14-2005 19:11:48




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-14-2005 11:51:52  
Hugh, FYI, the last 130 built was serial 10209 with engine 58560. The last 230 was serial 7671 with engine 57745.

The first 140 had engine 65046, first Farmall 240 had engine 65032 and first 240 Utility had engine 65017. First serial number of all three was 501.

Some of the engines between 58560 and 65001 probably were used elsewhere but it is likely that most of those numbers were never assigned. The engines were not used in stict numerical sequence.

Your 130 was built March '58, 140 March '63.

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gene b

03-13-2005 17:09:01




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to Al Sandholm, 03-13-2005 15:42:49  
No the head for the 140 has the water pump mounted on it as the SUPER A the pump fastens on the lower portion of the block.



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Al Sandholm

03-13-2005 18:08:52




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 Re: Super A /140 in reply to gene b, 03-13-2005 17:09:01  
Thanks for the info.



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