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Taps/Easy outs

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greywynd

03-17-2005 09:42:40




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Thought I add something about taps to go along with the topics below on the easy outs/broken bolt issue. I'm guessing that most of you on here go to the local hardware store and buy a tap when you need one. I know there are a few other machinists/toolmakers on here like myself as well, so hopefully some of them can fill in any blanks I may leave out. Most of the taps sold at hardware stores are 4 flute, straight flute taps. A lot of these are really just designed to clean the threads of an existing hole.

Then there's a style of tap that the flutes look like a drill, and spiral up around the tap. These are designed for machine tapping, and require proper conditions for it, and I've found are also prone to breaking if not used right.

The style that I prefer, and would suggest to most of you, is usually a 2 flute, with a 'spiral point'. These seem to be the strongest, as they have the most material through the cutting area of the tap. One thing with these is that they are really designed for through holes, as they push the cuttings ahead of the tap. In blind holes, which is what we are dealing with a lot of the time, you can still use them, but, you need to back them out often and blow the chips out.

Someone also asked where to buy good taps and left hand drills and the like. Especially with left hand drills, you will have to go to an industrial supply house that sells cutting tools to the machine shops. I'm sure there are some available online, maybe someone can post some links for us. If there are a few machine shops in your area, there will often be a small supplier that may have them in stock, or can order them.

Left had drills were originally used for 'screw machines', they could drill while another operation was being performed at the same time. (They can also do it with right hand drills, but sometimes the spindle is reversed for certain operations.) As more and more computer operated equipment is in use, I would hae to guess that the demand for left hand drills is dropping. Been a while since I saw prices on them, but, last I recall, they seemed to be 2-3 times the price of the same size rh drill.

Mark

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Superdave57

03-18-2005 17:28:47




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
I have often times just sharpened a regular drill"backwards", making it a left hand drill. Run it in reverse and it will usually back a broken bolt or stud out.



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Aces

03-18-2005 08:41:40




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
Thread forming taps can be used in any material that is a ductile material which meads it will stretch or bent with out breaking. I have used forming taps from plastic to steel they are the best for blind hole because of no chips.



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greywynd

03-18-2005 09:15:00




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to Aces, 03-18-2005 08:41:40  
Cool, glad to have learned something today. My experience with thread forming is somewhat limited, looks like you have a lot more experience with them.

Hey, isn't that why we have discussion forums like this? To help share our knowledge and experiences?

Mark



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greywynd

03-18-2005 00:13:01




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 Re: Tap Drill Sizes in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
When I started this post, I was thinking more about the easy out/broken bolt/tap subject from a day or 2 ago. Seems like I started something, and there's a bit more I felt I should add, especially for those of you learning about this stuff from the basics.

When you go to drill a hole that you want to thread, there is a specific size of drill required depending on the thread size (diameter) and pitch (TPI, or threads per inch on standard imperial threads).

I'm sure that most of you have done a bit of wrenching on the tractor, or car, or whatever, and have realized that most bolt sizes can be either a fine, or coarse thread. The tap drill sizes for those 2 taps WILL be a different size. There is a whole bunch of math you can do to figure out the size, but, the easiest way is to look it up in a tap drill chart. If you go to an industrial supplier, they often have these charts available for you, often free. Get one, and make use of it. I also found a good one on the net, the link is below. If you only have a basic set of drills, here's another bit of advice....when you go to buy a tap of a certain size, buy a couple of the right size drills for that tap, and keep them all together. That way you won't have to look it up each time, and they be together when you need them.

Another thing that I would recommend that you guys get, is a variety of 'centre drills'. These are little short stubby drills with a small pilot on them, and they are designed to start a hole for the drill to follow. Tired of having a drill wander around when you go to drill a hole? Centre punch it, then use a centre drill to get started. They are strong enough that they won't generally break if you put some sideways pressure on it to get a hole started where you want it.

Mark

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scott#2

03-17-2005 19:42:49




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
Back in the day we used forming taps in production work. 3000 piece runs were made short work of with a tapmatic and a perfectly sharpened bit. "Roll taps" as we called them, gave us threads that I woud say were better than 90% on a consistant basis. As far as easy outs are concerned, I never liked them. The best way to get a stud out, if its not broken off down in the hole, is to mig up a button on top and spin it out. Works great on steel in aluminum for obvious reasons and does very well for steel in steel. You need to get right on it while its still hot. Thats part of the trick.

scott#2

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Aces

03-17-2005 18:51:05




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
Gery I think I should jump back in here again about the express taps for 1 good reason. They are called thread forming taps. The post was right about them, I just what to say that to use a thread forming tap you need a bigger drill for a forming tap than a cutting tap, if not you will brake the tap. They do not work in a casted material be it cast iron cast, cast aluminum.



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greywynd

03-17-2005 23:54:26




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 Re: Roll/thread form taps in reply to Aces, 03-17-2005 18:51:05  
I never thought to mention these, they aren't usually the sort of thing that a 'tractor' guy would come across or need. Some people call them thread form taps, like you said, or I know a lot of guys that call them 'roll' taps, because of the way they 'roll' the material into the thread form. We use a lot of them at work for 'tapping' the zinc diecastings that we produce, and we have to be really careful selecting the tap that we use, as a lot of our taps are oversized, because we have to allow for plating after tapping. Due to different plating thicknesses, we have different types and sizes of taps to allow for that.

You're also right, thay are not for use in steel or cast iron, I believe they only work in non-ferrous metals, such as aluminum and zinc. I don't know if they work in brass or opper, I can't recall seeing them used, but maybe with the right applications they can be.

Mark

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captaink

03-17-2005 13:39:54




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
Most of my experiences with “easy outs” was that if it didn’t come out easy, you left out trying them. However after reading the posts here I’m almost convinced that most of my problems were due to poor (read cheap) tools. I just might be tempted to invest in some higher quality ones and see if that helps.

Thanks for the posts, informative as usual. :>)



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Vern-MI

03-17-2005 12:39:24




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
There are also "Express Taps" which are generally used to form threads in aluminum using a lot of coolant and high spindle speed. They form rather than cut the material to make the thread. The benefit is a cleaner tapped hole and stronger thread because the material structure is formed grain rather than cut across grain.



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FC

03-17-2005 12:30:05




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
Another added comment....way back when I was doing some machining, and threading we had some stuff I believe was called 'Tapmatic' threading lubricant. I cannot recall any details other than it definitely made the tap cut much smoother and less breakage. Other lubricants I have tried never worked as well or so it seemed. Not sure it is still available, or the 'environment police' have gotten to it for some reason. It has been about 15 years since I have been in that line of work and saw it.

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dr.sportster

03-17-2005 16:22:37




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to FC, 03-17-2005 12:30:05  
Tapmatic was great but it contained 111 trichlorathane.The chemical that poisoned a town in Mass.called Waltham,I think.No longer available.It was pretty smelly but worked best.



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Aces

03-17-2005 12:21:54




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
Gery Good post I would just add that some times the lift hand tap will screw the broken screw out as you try to drill a hole into the screw for the easy out. As for easy outs to remove the brikem screw I have a set of about 10 easy outs that have a short point and a shoulder to titent againts that I like better than the standard long easy because they cannot spread the screw out in the hole. You might try Mcmaster Carr on the web for drils and taps. For new holes I always use a revercable drill to tap with. Have less tap brakage.

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scotty

03-17-2005 10:11:57




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
Greywynd, An excellent followup to all those posts below! Yes, two flute taps are the way to go for the most part especially 1/4-20 and smaller. Looking at my 3/8-16 I noticed its three flute. Been in the trade 35 years and still learnin.

scotty



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dr.sportster

03-17-2005 10:58:43




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to scotty, 03-17-2005 10:11:57  
Your right those spirals have minimal cross section.I like to stick to four fluted because you can use a WAlton tap extractor on them,but two fluted is stronger. If you think its a tough job you best use two flute as you say.Is that what they call a gun tap?



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scotty

03-17-2005 11:26:50




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to dr.sportster, 03-17-2005 10:58:43  
Yes Sir Dr, you got it right! Gun tap.

scotty



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dr.sportster

03-17-2005 11:29:48




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to scotty, 03-17-2005 11:26:50  
A millwright that did alot of stainless work told me "I dont know why everybody doesnt just use these gun taps".Noticed he had all two fluters.Thank you.



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greywynd

03-17-2005 23:47:02




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to dr.sportster, 03-17-2005 11:29:48  
You guys are right, I forgot that they are called gun taps in a lot of areas. If I"m thinking right, when you go to a supplier to find them, most of the time they are listed as "spiral point taps". These same suppliers will also have the cutting fluids that are available today....there are a lot out there, and it seems to vary from area to area. To some extent I pick what is going to work for me, there are a lot of thicker ones now that tend to stay put better when drilling/tapping in the side of a piece with a hand drill, for example. Main thing is to not be afraid to use it, and stop often to get the chips out of the hole. Also, especially when trying to tap out a broken and drilled out bolt or stud, keep an eye on the cutting edge, if you chip a tooth or two, get another tap....that chip is an ideal spot for a cutting to get into and jam the tap. I know that it sucks to throw away a 15 or 30 dollar tap for such a small chip sometimes, but, it"s cheap when you think of the possible ugly alternatives if you break that tap off in a hard to fix, or hard to replace casting.

Mark

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PAULIH300

03-17-2005 10:02:33




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to greywynd, 03-17-2005 09:42:40  
Vermont American makes the LH bits and sells them in sets of 5.Something in the $20-30 range.
I have used Century brand taps/dies,and for the price they are super sharp and work well.However,they are still brittle and break if you dont keep them straight (in line).There are 3 types of taps: Pilot,bottoming,and Plug...you need to use the right one for the job.Pilot starts a new hole(thread),plug is for a hole(thread) that already exists,and the bottoming is for a blind hole.

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greywynd

03-18-2005 00:01:12




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to PAULIH300, 03-17-2005 10:02:33  
I know some of the better hardware stores here in my area of Ontario sell vermont americam taps. I have used a few, and they do seem to be of a good quality compared to others that I have used. Also wanted to add, some people call pilot taps 'taper' taps as well.

Mark



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Dion

03-17-2005 16:00:47




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to PAULIH300, 03-17-2005 10:02:33  
J&L is a quality industrial supply house. I have been using them for years. If you call in your order before 4:00 PM you will usually get your order within 2 days no extra shipping.
If you by drills,taps or easyouts, make sure they are ground from solid HSS.
All types of taps have a specific purpose. I agree that negitive rake 2 flute taps have the longest life as a general tap.

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greywynd

03-17-2005 23:58:41




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 Re: Taps/Easy outs in reply to Dion, 03-17-2005 16:00:47  
Just as a follow up to both of your posts, for some of the guys out there learning this as all new. I tend to use the 2 flute spiral point taps to get the majority of the material out, then if necessary, use the bottoming tap to get right to the bottom. One word of caution, use a tender touch when getting close to the bottom of the hole, if you 'bottom' the tap out against the blind end of the hole, it makes it very easy to break the tap when you go to back it out. Don't use an overly huge amount of force, take your time, and you will get the threaded hole you need.

Mark

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