Allan on articulated tractors

Since that thread, I've talked with a couple of farm operators who have been using articulateds now going on for 35 years. In both cases I was told efficiency was the name of the game when it came to drawbar work. There is just nothing will match those 8 big tires putting horsepower on the ground. Both also agreed balance is very important. You must weight rear of tractor so both drive axles and differentials are sharing the strain equally. I should point out, 1 of these guys is using still using Deere 40 series vintage, while the other guy has new Deere and FordNH.

From my own experience, in 1975 I purchased a Deere 540A forestry skidder, same rearends as 20 series tractors, same 8 speed power shift as used in those tractors and a 329 cubic inch 6 cylinder turbo charged Deere diesel. I bought this machine as I had 500 acres of woodland. I also wanted a machine I could use around farm in summer growing season. This machine was equiped with 4 large tires as was my 1066 with duals. You can see from engine size this machine was less hp than 1066, and yes it was a wee bit slower on disk or cultivator than 1066. It would however do the job using substancially less fuel per acre. I did tend to use it on disk where speed was less important than cultivator. I also had the ocasional basketball size rocks and those were not kind to individual disk blades on a 20' disk, thus I was quite happy to see disk going 3.5 to 4 mph. On an hour meter basis this articulated machine was less for repairs as well.

It is my contention, that there is a good reason why 20+ year old 2 wheel drive big tractors, sell for close to nothing prices. That is exactly what they are worth. Your comments PLEASE.

There is a large tractor auction every first monday in Sikeston MO which is at the Northern edge of cotton belt. A good clean 150 HP up 20 year old 2 wheel drive John Deere will bring as much as it cost new there.

It seems to me that our current society is based on the premise that bigger is better. Larger businesses including farming or ranching can spread fixed costs like family living and health insurance over a larger asset base which means that the profit margin and return on investment can be a lot smaller per unit. There was and probably still are available quantity discounts for large purchasers. See Wal-Mart as an example here. This philosophy has trickled down to ag. In my area there used to be at least two farms to a square mile 40 years ago. Now, I’m lucky to find two genuine full time farmers making a living off the land in ten square miles!

I still attribute this phenomenon mostly to fathers wanting to hand down the farm to their son(s) and still keep on farming themselves. This desire is admirable and ideally will not decrease the population but in reality it has. Since the prices for farm products have not gone up since the 1940’s farmers have had to find more cost efficient ways to produce and produce more from the same land base. Unfortunately these strategies have included the economies of large scale and willingness to invest in the latest technologies. It really doesn’t matter if the technology we are talking about is retiring Mr. Ed to the stable in lieu of an H Farmall or investing in global positioning equipment so that we can more effectively apply inputs to the land. Until the economy reaches a point where the small businessman can find his niche in the market I believe this upsizing spiral will continue and will continue to see fewer neighbors and larger equipment. As others have pointed out, there will be another downturn probably in the near future where operators will be forced to sell out or get bailed out again by government subsidies, but again, that is part of the current philosophy of our world. Keep in mind that the farm bill for many years had the official title of “Food and Securities Act” and that other countries as well see to it that food is available at affordable prices for their people.

Now, it that didn’t raise your blood pressure the following probably will. I have read on here several times where bankers catch the blame when a farmer ends up broke but have never seen one recognized when someone is successful. A banker is just a middleman who’s job is to take money that people have deposited in his bank and loan it to people that prove to him they are a good risk and can pay it back. The banker job is to do all the proper work to the best of his ability to ensure that the person entrusting him with their money will get it back plus interest. He is not the financial manager of the business or individual borrowing the money, nor should a borrower expect the banker to be an expert in his business regardless if it be farming or General Motors. He should be knowledgeable about financial reports like balance sheets and profit and loss statements so that he can recognize a sound business or problems in a business if they arise. I don’t take my car to my dentist for his opinion on getting the transmission fixed, why do we expect our banker to tell us when it is good for us to borrow money?

I have borrowed my share of money in the past and present. Some times I have regretted it, others not. The bottom line still is that whenever I borrowed money it was always MY idea, MY want, or even MY GREED that had me signing on the line to use and pay someone else to use their money. No one has ever held a gun to my head and forced me to borrow money.

When I decided to quit farming several years ago, it was my decision, based on my own knowledge and analysis of my business situation. I am currently working on staring a business so that I can be on my own as I’m tired of working for the large corporate conglomerates that really don’t “give a turkey” about me and just see me and their other employees as an expense. Because of this I have some money borrowed again and am working long hours in an attempt to make this work.

I know this has been long, but felt I needed to express my thoughts. I’m sorry and apologize if I offended anyone here by what I have said. That was not my intent. However, I do believe in what the good book says about removing the beam from our own eye before we try to find the speck in our neighbor’s eye (paraphrase). A lot of our problems we bring on ourselves either as individuals or as a collective.

End of sermon. Thanks for reading. I now have my flame retardant suit on! :>)

As fer the deep thinking part; I would if I could, I'm just not capable. :>)

Thanks for yer thoughts; I enjoyed it.

Allan

My brothers run a pair of 4X4s, a 9350 and a 9370 with a 7120 for a planting tractor they cover well over 2000 acres of their own and do custom work on the side. Even my B-I-L that teaches school full time runs a 7140 with FWA, he farms over 600 acres of row crop in his part time. The trend had been bigger every since McCormick invented the reaper and it will continue.

All that old faded iron was purchased new at some time.

Those that live in the past will never escape it.

Having grown up during the collapse of the farm economy in the 1980s and watched my father's farm go to the highest bidder in 1985 my brothers and I have also learned a few things from the past. My two older brothers started farming in 1980, I don't think they've forgotten too much about that time frame either.

As many of you know, my background is in the dairy industry. I remember my dad saying in 1960, having bought 3 new tractors in past 5 years, new line of haying equipment that year and just built a new 50 cow tie stall barn. He said, " It's little wonder poor old bossy has tears running down her cheeks, as she looks around the farm yard and sees what she has to pay for." If he was right, and I'm not about to argue that point, it's a wonder that poor old bossy can still produce milk, considering the amount of body fluids that must be going to tears in 2005.

Another thing constant about all this is the resale of old tractors.

The old H and the $80K articulated both sell for 'bout $1500 on any given day. :>)

Allan

No, you took my comments and opinions about the big new tractors as ridicule of something you said; this is not the case and nothing could be further from the truth, because I just don't do that. I was just stating my view.

What I meant to say, was that I would much rather own an old flop-house, broken down tractor and have it paid for, rather than owe a $200K note on new tractor in at the bank while having to trade the silly thing every year to stay one step ahead of, and having to keep from getting it repossessed by the wolves, which is really who one is working for if he opens himself up to this sort of game.

It is hard to explain this view to anyone who has never made a trip to the poorhouse and back. We live in a “charge it” and “finance it” society nowadays.

Out of my 60 years, the one day that stands out most vividly in my mind is that day I woke up and realized full well that the only thing I had to my name was $11.20 and a tired old Chevy pickup. That is a wake up call that will jar a feller to the bone.

As far as the economics, the operation, it’s merits and points of ponder on these big new, tripled-up rigs, I simply can’t comment, because I’ve never, ever been around one of the large outfits. I do know however, for any given field, that the old H with an 8 foot disc will probably get the same job done if he is given enough time and it’s owner does not have to worry ‘bout that yearly payment. Well, it’s not a payment is it? More like a rental tab in at the money house. :>)

On the other hand, if a operator is sizeable, is trying to get across 5 sections in a timely manner, is fluid and is making his living from farming, he, in all probability, MUST buy that big rig.

I don’t know. It is totally outside the boundaries of my little world. :>(

Allan

The entire food industry in North America, maybe even the entire world is controlled in about 4 or 5 corperate board rooms. That my friend, scares me one H@$$ of a lot more than the horse versus 300 horses. We think in North America, that we have elected governments that encourage competition, truth is they just kill competition in favour of their corperate buddies.

Stop and think about it. It is far easier to controll 100,000 farmers than it is to dictate to 2 million farmers. And, dictate is exactly what is going on, make no mistake about it. It is just happening very, very slowly is all. So slow, that folks don't realize what is going on.

Me too. I don't care if I make any money at this or not. I'm doing this for my own shear enjoyment.

That's the nice part of getting old. You can look back on your life and realize what really did make you happy in days past.

I'm gonna do exactly like you are doing with your garden; just a little bigger garden is all. I'm gonna go out and play in the dirt and get myself a darned good sunburn. I haven't felt this good in years. :>)

Allan

I have to believe that the successful large farmers are paying attention to business and not just buying large green equipment to impress the neighbors, although it really looks that way sometimes. You rarely see corporations nursing along old outdated equipment.

One thing I wonder about is the $ some people are paying for GPS guidance. I mean there are some very big farmers with very big fields that are making GPS technology pay for itself. Then there are some more that must just have an aversion for steering. I think, by the end of the next decade, we will find out if buy now, pay later is viable or a disaster. IMHO, I think there are some tough times for everybody down the road. And it will be what pushes the ineffecient ones out, and will cause at lot of the large ones to grow even bigger, but hopefully the producer with his or her eye on the budget will be able to squeak by.

Explain to me this. A neighbor bought a new Deere combine and heads at around $450,000. Now 9600s, which are a heck of a combine, were selling at auction for around $30,000-$40,000. Grant it, you have to buy heads for them all, but is that one combine really worth the price of 7-8 equipped 9600s with around 1500 hours? It is like the used Cadillac I bought. Nobody wants them, anyone who is going to buy a Cadillac buys new. That's fine, but I feel pretty good about buying a 1994 Deville with 80,000 miles for $3,000 USD. And I feel pretty cofindent I can get 120,000 more miles out of it pretty cheaply. That is what worries me, the disparity that existed up till this spring between new and used. And it isn't worrying me any less that used is selling for more.

Two AllCrop 66's. The big ones. With two we can cut almost 11 ft swath.

I said what I did above based on the fact that the well run successful farms don't run junk like I do.

Heck, maybe you are right.

I was having this coversation the other day with a fellow about land prices and how they have soared totally and completley out of the relm of reality and I commented on how those prices will never, ever return their costs.

He looked at me with the darnest look on his face, and said, "Where have you been? Of course it won't pay for itself; it's been that way for years."

Heaven help us if it turns south again, tho. Heaven help us. Anyone remember those lard sandwiches?

Allan

My uncle the dairyman lived and worked the uplands for many years (SW MO). When he had achieved a little affluence, he bought some of that overpriced bottom land. He said he wished he'd known sooner why it was overpriced, because at double the money it was 3 to 4 times as productive. He was a cash only pay as you go guy who died with 300 momma cows (he had retired from the dairy) and about 500 owned acres. His only debt was his original purchase of his parent's homestead 160. He started with nothing in 1946 and did quite well by working hard. He had two large Ford 2WD tractors at his death.

You have to be stubborn to farm. You have to plant when it is dry and mow hay when rain is threatening.

It is hard to know when to quit. There is a time to quit. It is also hard to make good business decisions when you have a banker helping you to the poor house.

Read the post above about my uncle. I've had lots of successful relatives farming, but none that started with nothing like this guy.

He had to go to town and get a job to supplement his income a few times. The jobs were never very good.

My dad left the farm he was buying form his dad in 1951 to work in Kansas City. His brother fed the cattle. I remember going to Iowa in August to buy hay. They sold their registered Hereford herd for $0.10 on the dollar. The third winter in KC was followed finally be drought busting rain and the fields stayed too wet to get any wheat out. My dad went to KC for good. His brother (not the uncle mentioned above) went to CA and worked a year on corporate farms. He came back and ran both farms successfully until his death in '72 (rolled a tractor over stretching fence with a loader). By the way, they all farmed with 9N Fords. My dad bought the M in '52 because he could not custom hay because of wet fields. The dealer convinced him the larger wheels would help. The M is all I remember and is why I got started on IH. It was only a few years ago I found out it was a last-ditch attempt to stay afloat.

Hard times, and stubborn, but they took extreme action to save their farms.

Depression, stress, fear of failure, who knows why otherwise successful bright people let it get to them? I just cannot blame the corporations, banks, nor the government. Allan survived a forced sale, as have many others. All I know is what my extended family has gone through in the last 70 years.

In my response you answered, I prefaced it that pay as you go is a good plan for a quarter section family farm. But 160 acres is not a business that will support a family any more. Or a new tractor of any size.

In the 1930's, eighty percent of the country made it's living (sort of) on the farm. Today that number is less than five percent. That's a lot fewer tractor drivers covering more acreage.

Is bigger better? I don't know. It's certainly more efficient. Time will tell, I suppose. During the depression years many of my relatives (and lots of others) were able to get by with no income. They owned the land, ate what they grew, hunted and fished, canned for the winter, kept chickens, a few beef and dairy cattle, woodlot for heat, and bartered for sugar and flour. I'm sure it wasn't pretty, but it wasn't destitute and starving.

Don't think we would be so fortunate if times turned bad again. I live in New England now, and God forbid if we couldn't get our produce from California and Argentina, or the inexpensive high-
fructose corn syrup and soy products that are used to make so many prepared foods. There's about a three day supply of food in the pipeline that feeds the mega-grocery stores. Most of the hundred acre 2WD tractor farms that used to supply food locally have given over to subdivisions and golf courses, and the long-
vacant Farmers Market in town that acted as the wholesaler for the neighborhood groceries was torn down to build a Wally-
World. A hundred acre hay operation near here just sold out to a housing developer for $3 million. The old guy ain't crazy! But if really cheap transportation ever became a problem and we had to supply food locally, one of those 30HP 2WD pieces of iron would be a good piece of equipment to turn over the 18th fairway...

ps - Grandpa never did buy a tractor - stuck with that pair of draft horses until he retired sometime in the forties, and he kept a pair around until he passed away in '69 (at 98). Guess he felt the same way about them as some of us do about the old tractors. Or maybe with two boys and eight girls he just couldn't afford one!