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Wits End - Leaking Oil

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Farmall Frank

10-25-2005 15:07:23




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First, I cleaned the engine real good. Then, I got a oil tracer/UV light as suggested earier to find a leak, and it looks like most is coming from the oil pan gasket. This is the 3rd gasket I have installed in one year!! Oil is dripping off various pan bolts, and I am pretty sure the gasket isn't sealing since I can see oil leaking down the pan between several bolts and the pan. Even used permatex on the pan (not the engine side) last time, but still!

There's a breather tube on the right side. Could oil be coming from that? I have removed the distributer and can see oil leaking down the side of the engine from the pushrod chamber access plate on the right side of the engine, which is attached to the breather tube. The gasket must be bad, so I will replace that gasket but am not sure if oil should be behind that plate. Is oil being forced out the breather because oil is building up behind the access plate? I'm losing about one quart per 2 hours.

This is making me real grumpy. Anybody have any hints on what I am missing or what I can do to fix this leak?

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Rev.

10-27-2005 12:31:48




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Farmall Frank, 10-25-2005 15:07:23  
Frank,
If you are working on an H there is another gasket under a plate that is at the rear of the motor. This plate is removeable and allows access to the crank bolts. This might be where you are leaking. Hope this helps.

Rev.



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Michael Soldan

10-25-2005 17:41:07




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Farmall Frank, 10-25-2005 15:07:23  
Frank, do exactly what Scott told you. I do have a story though, I was working on my 350 Camero and I had an oil leak around the pan. I removed, cleaned and siliconed the pan, new gasket and same on engine side...a few days later I see the same leak, someone told me it was likely the sending unit, did that too, then someone thought it was from the back of the intake manifold, took it off and resealed with new gaskets..still oil leak ...laying under the car one night in frustration I ran my wrench over the oil pan..suddenly a bead of oil appeared, shoved a little harder with the corner of the wrench and put it through the pan! I couldn't see the pin hole before but that was the source of the leak, I felt stupid about all the work I had done trying to solve the leak and it turned out to be the pan itself....=new pan ... now I told this story for a reason , check the pan very carefully for pinhole leaks around the flange. I didn't think something full of oil would rust through.....Mike in Exeter Ontario

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Hugh MacKay

10-26-2005 00:22:25




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Michael Soldan, 10-25-2005 17:41:07  
Mike: I suppose after 50 years a Farmall oil pan could have a pinhole leak. For the big 3 automakers it has been quite common occurence in vehicles even after 5 years, and that is only in the past 25 years. The first time I heard of it, I said,"Riduclous, an oil pan couldn't rust." however they do. But I'll bet no pre 1960 oil pans have rusted pin holes.

I have a story also. My 6.2 Chevy diesel had an oil leak. I really hadn't examined it closely. One day I was changing oil, and had reached the point of 4L of new oil back in crankcase. Went back under truck just to double check I had thightened filter and plug. While under truck I took a closer look at pan. My leaked oil was only on flat surface on bottom of oil pan. Clearly it was not a crank seal as I had been expecting to find. I got some rags and cleaner, soon found 3 pin hole leaks. Pan seemed very solid even close to pin holes. Sat.pm and I thought where could I ever get this repaired quickly. I decided NO way. Looked around my shop to see what products I might have for a sealer as a temporary fix. Gasket maker or black was all I could find. Back under truck sanded surface and cleaned it a bit. These pin holes were very slow, similar to blood if you picked your finger with needle. I marked exact location of pin holes, removed oil and cleaned throughly. With tip of finger I forced gasket maker into pin holes. After drying some I applied more on surface, actually did about 3 coats building a patch over entire area of the 3 pin holes. Refilled engine with oil, it didn't leak. About 7 years and 150,000 miles later it still didn't leak. In fact I sold the truck for parts in 2001 as frame was rusted and broken. The buyer put engine in a 4x4 truck he only uses for snow plowing. He gave me good money for that truck, mainly because engine sounded good and had no leaks. I did tell him about the oil pan. His reaction, "If it held for 7 years and 150,000 miles on a diesel, probably wasn't going to fail soon.

Since that time I've always taken a second look at quick easy fixes. Believe me it can save a lot of dollars.

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Janicholson

10-25-2005 17:32:43




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Farmall Frank, 10-25-2005 15:07:23  
If the pan is leaking, and the tracer indicates that to be the case, ( I'd clean it off and run it again with me watching, and sombody else starting it), the next step is to remove the pan without disturbing the gasket. Keep the bolts organized to assure that you know which holes they came out of. Look at the gasket and see if there is clearly places it was not pressed into the block, and where it is smudged with oil flow. Take a bolt (from the area of the leak) and try it in its hole. If it tightens up before the bolt head gets very close to the block, there may be either long bolts, or obstructed threads. I've seen both happen. Run a bottoming tap into the holes to be sure they are clean, and use different bolts if they seem too long, as above. Place a very flat surface (piece of glass) on the pan mating surface to check flatness by observation. careful straightening can rescue the pan if bent.
Installation:
Install the pan loosely with no bolts more than finger tight. then tighten them all evenly untill the gasket toughees and all are equal. Then turn them in 1/4 turn each untill they start to pinch the gasket. then use a torque wrench to tighten each to a portion of the final torque until they are all correct.
The pan gasket should bulge just a bit in the crack when the bolts are fully tightened.
I don't know the spec. , but it should be in the manual. This may seem excessive, however doing it for the fifth time is worse.
JimN

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scott#2

10-25-2005 17:27:19




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Farmall Frank, 10-25-2005 15:07:23  
Take the pan back off. Make sure the flange around the pan is flat all the way around. If it isn't, back it up and take a fine faced hammer and planish it back to where there are no dips between pan holes. If you have to, turn the pan upside down so the flange is facing the bench (steel bench prefered) and use a wide drift punch or brass round (edges chamfered) and tap it down dead flat. Start at the holes and work both ways to the center.

Use permatex blue silicone. Run a bead all the way around the pange flange, on the outside of the holes, all that is needed is a bead about 1/8" wide or a touch more. More is not better. After you have the flange bead of silicone on around the outside of the bolt holes, lay semi circle beads of silicone around the bolt holes and join them back up to the main bead you ran earlier. Drop the gasket on and do the same thing on the engine side. Make sure everything is squeaky clean, NO OIL ANYWHERE!

When you get ready to lift the pan into place, have a few pan bolts ready with silicone around the threads near the head to hang the pan, silicone the rest of the bolts as well and hand tighten. Then tighten the bolts to snug, (about 2/3rds of the way tight, dont squish out the cork gasket, tighten to where it just starts to squish out, pay attention), let it sit 24 hours. If that doesnt get it, I have not a clue, outside of a blocked breather.

scott#2

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rumplestiltskin

10-26-2005 09:51:04




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to scott#2, 10-25-2005 17:27:19  
I would add just one thing to Scott #2"s suggestion.

When you Permatex the gasket to the pan, squish the gasket down into place and let the Permatex set up overnight. This makes it easier to reinstall the pan, and almost eliminates the chance the gasket can shift or pop out.

Mark W.



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Dave BN

10-25-2005 17:11:38




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Farmall Frank, 10-25-2005 15:07:23  
I'm thinking bent or warped oil pan also. Can you lay a straight edge on the gasket surface of the pan to see if it's flat or bent? If it is you may be able to straighten it but most likely it would need to be replaced. I assume you have scraped the engine block and oil pan surfaces to be sure there is no left over gasket parts stuck to them. Use a razor blade to scrape the surfaces. Old gasket material or sealer can be VERY hard to see. One last thought, your not overfilling your crankcase with oil are you? One more last thought, is the crankcase vent clean and free. I'm not familiar with this engine but all engines need to vent pressure and will leak at the weakest point if the natural vent is plugged. Good Luck.....Dave.

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Farmall Frank

10-25-2005 17:21:41




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Dave BN, 10-25-2005 17:11:38  
I will check the surface for flatness and leftover stuff. I tried before but will be more sure this time.

The crankcase breather, I assume, provides the venting. When I remove the access plate and breather Thursday, I will check the filter that is supposed to be in there according to the parts manual. However, I notice when the engine is pulling very hard and the exhaust starts to smoking, the breather is also pumping a lot of smoke towards the ground. Maybe it is still pugged up, or maybe I have too much blowby. I'm not sure that much blowby is OK.

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Farmall Frank

10-25-2005 15:09:26




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Farmall Frank, 10-25-2005 15:07:23  
Sorry, it's a 400D.



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Gene Brooks

10-25-2005 16:54:47




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Farmall Frank, 10-25-2005 15:09:26  
I use a carb. cleaner on the metal to remove oil and grease so that the permatex will seal to the metal on both sides an oil film on the metal will break up any adhesive before it has a chance to sealto the metal ;it works for me !!can't hurt to try it Good luck Gene



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Farmall Frank

10-25-2005 17:22:33




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Gene Brooks, 10-25-2005 16:54:47  
Thanks. Will do what you suggest.



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Yugrotcart

10-25-2005 15:44:26




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 Re: Wits End - Leaking Oil in reply to Farmall Frank, 10-25-2005 15:09:26  
Thinkin maybe your oil pan is bent, bolts overtightend at some point. Is the "sealing" surface of the pan flat?



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