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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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RE: 434 IH Starting

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AL Sproule

11-08-2005 14:52:35




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Well I thought for sure the solenoid was the problem. I checked the small "s" terminal that has the wire on it and no power at all. I went out and bought a new starter solenoid and installed that. Still nothing at the small terminanl. I have power from the battery to the top teminal of the solenoid. This has to be a ground problem I guess where the solenoid attaches to the tractor?
Power should be at the small "s" terminal at all times right? Thanks again.
AL

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El Toro

11-08-2005 18:46:13




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to AL Sproule, 11-08-2005 14:52:35  
Is this a gas engine or diesel? Hal



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El Toro

11-08-2005 15:40:37




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to AL Sproule, 11-08-2005 14:52:35  
There should only be battery voltage on one of those small terminals on your solenoid. The one with voltage feeds your ignition switch and has voltage at all times. The other small terminal
will only have voltage when you attempt to start your engine. This is when you have a starter button or a key start. Once the engine starts
and you release the key from the start position
or quit pressing on the starter button there's no voltage on the other small terminal. It only has voltage when cranking the engine.

Both small terminals should have wires connected to them. Only one has voltage until you try to start the engine and the circuit is completed when you crank the engine and voltage is fed to the other wire. This the only time you have voltage on both terminals Check the other terminal to see if voltage is present. I think it should be near to the battery cable on your solenoid.

Clean that area where the solenoid attaches to the starter with some emery cloth. Paint & rust make good insulators. Hal

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parts man

11-08-2005 15:10:08




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to AL Sproule, 11-08-2005 14:52:35  
There is only power at the "S" terminal when the key is in the "START" position.



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Tim...Ok

11-08-2005 15:21:51




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to parts man, 11-08-2005 15:10:08  
Parts man is correct.. should only be hot when key is on.. jump "s" to battery cable and starter should spin..

Tim



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AL Sproule

11-08-2005 15:53:36




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to Tim...Ok, 11-08-2005 15:21:51  
Well I thought for sure after your last post Hal it was the solenoid. I checked for voltage and there was none. After swapping out the old one and put in the new tried it again and still nothing The tractor has a key start and only one wire comes off the small "S" terminal the other has nothing.
Would the wire form the small terminal feed the igntion switch?
Maybe another cleaning might be in order, although the area was bright and shinny from when it was replaced last year LOL.
Would the positve ground have anything to do with it? Maybe the guy's who fixed it did not know about it..
Thanks again guy's
AL

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JB2

11-08-2005 17:09:48




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to AL Sproule, 11-08-2005 15:53:36  
Hi Al, is this a gas or Diesel 434? If it is a Diesel then it probably only has the start switch connected to the S terminal. I have seen the other terminal used on a gas engine to supply 12V to the ignition system for starting and then when the key is release from start to run the ignition system is fed thru a dropping resistor.

Does this tractor have a safety switch on the clutch? The 434 that we owned did not but it was an early 434, I know the 384 we had had a starter safety switch on the clutch. The clutch had to be depressed before the starter would engage. This switch caused a lot of problems and most farmers eliminated this safety device.

Now to trouble shoot your start problem with a jumper cable.
BEFORE ATTEMPTING THIS MAKE SURE TRACTOR IS IN NEUTRAL AND REAR BRAKES ARE LOCKED ON AND FUEL CONTROL ROD IS IN THE OFF POSITION.
Test 1:
Now take a single jumper cable and connect one end to the big terminal on the starter solenoid that has the cable from the battery (top terminal), now monentary touch the other end of the jumper cable to the bottom big terminal that is connected to the starter motor, the starter motor should spin but not engage into the ring gear. If it does not spin then there is the following possibilities:
1)Bad connection to battery or battery to ground.
2)Bad starter or starter to ground connection. As I rememember the ground connection to these starters was thru the front end bearing which was not good and later models had a separate ground strap from bottom terminal at the from end of starter to engine block.

If test 1 works then test 2 is same connection as test 1 but this time monentaryly touch the jumper cable to the S terminal on the solenoid.
This time the starter motor should spin and engage in the ring gear. If the starter motor does not spin and engage the ring gear then either the solenoid is bad or the ground on the solenoid is bad.

If test 1 and 2 work then the problem is farther back in the start switch circuit or safety switch or fuse in the start switch line.

Hope this helps
JB2

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Janicholson

11-09-2005 06:39:21




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to JB2, 11-08-2005 17:09:48  
My two cents.
In my experience, there are four terminals on this solenoid. they are:

1}Main battery connection (big nutted terminal). This has two wires on it. One heavy cable from the battery non-ground terminal, and at least one other(usually 10 ga.) going to the Amp meter. (others may be added to this but are not usually correct because they avoid the Amp meter).

2} The "S" terminal (small threaded stud with or without nut). This is the terminal that causes the solenoid to operate. It is not "hot" it is from the start terminal on the key, or start push button. This needs voltage to engage the starter.
The solenoid windings are connected to this terminal on the supply end, and to ground through the solenoid mount on the other end.

3} "I" terminal looks like the "S" terminal (small stud, nut or not). This is a ballast resistor bypass terminal. It is connected to the coil side of the ballast resistor in the ignition circuit. It is connected, on the inside of the solenoid, to the terminal going to the starter. When starting, the battery voltage drops to around 10 volts in cold conditions. To minimize the effects of this reduced voltage this circuit supplies voltage directly to the coil. Helping cold starting in many cases. (this is often ignored and should not be).

4} the Starter terminal (big and with a nut) this goes directly to the starter and causes all actions including engaging the pinion to ring gear. The starter has no other input.

This may clarify the operation of the 4 post solenoid. JimN

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AL Sproule

11-09-2005 14:27:32




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to Janicholson, 11-09-2005 06:39:21  
Thanks very much guy's I will check those ideas tomorrow. The same time I noticed the tractor not starting I tried the lights as well well and they did not come on either. Fully charged battery to boot. The light have never been a problem, Could my problem be tied into the them as well.
AL



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Janicholson

11-09-2005 15:04:59




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to AL Sproule, 11-09-2005 14:27:32  
If you read my post above and look at #1 in the list, it indicates a wire attached to the battery cable connection (10ga.). This wire goes to the amp gage only. It connects to the same polarity as the battery terminal connected to the solenoid. If there is no wire, that is your problem. If it is there it may be a broken wire inside, or at a terminal. The amp meter is suposed to have battery voltage at both sides all the time. If it does on the side with the wire i have been describing but not the other, then it is broken, and cannot be fixed. The wires from the other side of the amp gage go to lights and the ign sw.
See bob M wiring diagrams. (and add my starting resistor bypass as in my other post).
JimN

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AL SPROULE

11-10-2005 13:14:46




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to Janicholson, 11-09-2005 15:04:59  
Thabks very much Jim for all you wisdom, I will troble shoot this weekend.
Thanks again
AL



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al sproule

11-11-2005 12:11:10




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 Re: RE: 434 IH Starting in reply to AL SPROULE, 11-10-2005 13:14:46  
Looked at it today and noticed I don't have an amp gauge. What would the next place be that the other wire from the battery would go to..
I checked the ignition switch and no powewr there.
AL



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