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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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She is NOT getting the better of me today.

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Kelly C

01-16-2006 12:43:07




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Fixed my pulling disk. Welded 3 bits of key stock on it to give it a lip. Ground the disk down a little to allow for a looser fit inside the bore.
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Oh boy here she comes!

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Out she comes. Whew sure is alot of work. But is much better when your tools work like they should.

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lee

01-16-2006 14:32:11




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to Kelly C, 01-16-2006 12:43:07  
I'll do my own welding, thanks.



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Kelly C

01-16-2006 15:17:15




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to lee, 01-16-2006 14:32:11  
Hehehe. No doubt about that being bad welding.
Very very hard to hold that little key stock in the right spot and hit it with the rod.
Got the job done though.



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the tractor vet

01-16-2006 12:57:33




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to Kelly C, 01-16-2006 12:43:07  
Where there is a will there is away . Now remember what i told ya about them bore classafications them ones that are C and D them aftermarket sleeves will be loose and they Will break off and get sucked down around the crank look real close at the deck of the block and you will see the letters stamped on the deck next to the hole .



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Mydeere

01-16-2006 15:39:28




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to the tractor vet, 01-16-2006 12:57:33  
O.K. you got me thinking now. What do you mean by "bore classifications"? I"m thinking maybe its got something to do with the tolerance of the bore hole.



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the tractor vet

01-16-2006 15:47:54




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to Mydeere, 01-16-2006 15:39:28  
You are 100% correct , when they were done at the factory they did not hold real close on the tolarances and got a littel big on the block bore on some of the holes SOOooooo they made the sleeves for the C and D holes a bit bigger on the outside . So it is like this the best thing to do when doing a rebuild on a gasser or even the older diesels from the late fiftys to mid 60's pull the head and see what you are working with if they are all A and B's then you are good to get parts from where ever or spend the bigger bucks and see if Case I H still offers the ones for the C and D holes as for me i don't screw around i just make it a 291 and be done with it .

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Mydeere

01-16-2006 17:21:05




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to the tractor vet, 01-16-2006 15:47:54  
Is this typical for all sleeved engines? When you are purchasing sleeves do you need to specify the letter next to each bore to the supplier?



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the tractor vet

01-16-2006 19:36:58




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to Mydeere, 01-16-2006 17:21:05  
No just on some of the I H engines with the dry sleeve most of what i have seen is in the c221- 291 and 239 thru 282 diesel now not sayen that it is not found in some of the smaller 4 cylinder but myself i have not done any to speck of engine work on them , i would assume that the 504's were the same .



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Kelly C

01-16-2006 15:19:35




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to the tractor vet, 01-16-2006 12:57:33  
Crud now I have to go look. COuldnt you leave me blisfully unaware?



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Kelly C

01-16-2006 15:25:18




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to Kelly C, 01-16-2006 15:19:35  
Got it.
A C C A A C
Those are the letters next to the cylinders.



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MN Scott

01-16-2006 16:48:53




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to Kelly C, 01-16-2006 15:25:18  
Boy I don't know, the sleeve I just replaced in my 263 706 was a D class bore and the new sleeve took a hammer and block of wood to install it. Every thing was perfectally clean and the bore measured in specs, no taper or eggshaping. Not hard pounding but defenially not hand fit. The sleeve was from A&I and was USA made. Some new sleeves have variations in them so if one fits loose try another one, same goes for the pistons. Then you can always cheat and install the sleeve permanatlly with iodine. Make sure the sleeve and bore are cleaned with brake clean, then coat the sleeve and block bore with iodine making sure not to get it in any part you dont want rusted. Install the sleeve and leave it 48 hours and it will be permanatlly rusted in. I would'nt recommend it but thats the way the old timers around here used to do it.

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the tractor vet

01-16-2006 17:00:55




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to MN Scott, 01-16-2006 16:48:53  
A block of wood and a hammer is not what i call a press fit , there was some talk about this from Clevit and the one Clevit guy said that a hand fit was good well he was wrong . As these sleeves are to be pressed in at a give pressure on the OTC doubel piston hdy puller . and at the moment i don't have the spec . setting here and off the top of my head it is somewhere around 3to7 ton that they should be pressed in as they say for proper thremeral exchange .Now in the years that i worked on them i have seen encluding my owen experance a total of 6 that have sucked the sleeve one 560 several 460's a 656 gasser and one diesel and 706's all shortly after overhaul.

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MN Scott

01-16-2006 17:32:19




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to the tractor vet, 01-16-2006 17:00:55  
The tight press fit applies to the 291 right but not the 263. In my IH Blue Ribbon 263 engine manual it states the sleeves should install with 25 to 75 pounds of pressure. My I&T manual states the same thing. I know the 291's have the heavy press sleeves that take up to 4000 lbs or so to install them. Like the early diesels in the 560 were loose fit sleeves then at a certain serial number they switched to the heavy press fit sleeves in them to.

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the tractor vet

01-16-2006 19:47:02




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to MN Scott, 01-16-2006 17:32:19  
Now my understanding is that was what they tryed first and had some problems and went to the press fit on all as they would work lose and break the flang off and suck the sleeve down . Even Cummins has went to a press fit after all them years of a basic hand fit on the 855's as time went on the hand fit when they started going into the higher Hp. the sleeve would walk and crack the counter bore as the bottom was working on the O/Rings so they made a change where you did some machine work and then the new style sleeve was a press fit . I know from my old cummins that i worked over and jacked up to way beyond a sain Hp. that when she did go yuckyucko phuey that my counter bores where all cracked and i had to do a counterbore repair and have had to repair a couple counter bores on a couple 706 that the sleeve was working and almost cracked off .

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the tractor vet

01-16-2006 15:40:56




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to Kelly C, 01-16-2006 15:25:18  
yep your going to have three loose ones and three that fit correctly That is why i was suggesten that you go to the 291 update and have it bored then if done correctly everything fits like a glove now If you would have gone to the case I H dealer they use to be able to get the sleeve and piston kit for the C and D bore class. as the sleeve is a bit thicker . now I know someone is going to tell you like they fed me the same line that a hand fit was good well way back when i did one hole that it was a hand fit on one of my owen 706 with a 263 and about a year after i had done it it sucked that sleeve and thrashed and crashed around a bit but it did not blow sooooo o i pulled the head had a buddy bring his porable boring bar over bored the hole pressed in a repair sleeve and bored it to the A spec. and pressed in the new sleeve never did that again.

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Kelly C

01-16-2006 16:40:59




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to the tractor vet, 01-16-2006 15:40:56  
You know when I was looking at every thing. This motor has been rebuilt before. The sleeves that were in it are not that worn at all. Just that the #3 lost a ring.

Does it say IH on IH pistons?

As for my rebuild. its going to have to go with what I have. Budget is all gone for any more engine work.
I suppose I could put some of that sleeve lock stuff on the C class bores and hope for the best.

These are the same kits the IH dealers are using so maybe they are a little better than some of the others.

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the tractor vet

01-16-2006 17:08:43




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to Kelly C, 01-16-2006 16:40:59  
Well as far as the modren day sleeve lock tite i am not going to say if the heat will effect it or not as i do not know all i can say is mic everything closely and try and fit everything as tight as you can as i know oh to well on the short funds but i just hate doing things over . . As for a broken ring if the scoreing was not real bad i would have just pulled that one hole and run a ridged hone thru it and smoothed it out and stuck a piston and set of rings on one hole and run it.

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the tractor vet

01-16-2006 15:40:52




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 Re: She is NOT getting the better of me today. in reply to Kelly C, 01-16-2006 15:25:18  
yep your going to have three loose ones and three that fit correctly That is why i was suggesten that you go to the 291 update and have it bored then if done correctly everything fits like a glove now If you would have gone to the case I H dealer they use to be able to get the sleeve and piston kit for the C and D bore class. as the sleeve is a bit thicker . now I know someone is going to tell you like they fed me the same line that a hand fit was good well way back when i did one hole that it was a hand fit on one of my owen 706 with a 263 and about a year after i had done it it sucked that sleeve and thrashed and crashed around a bit but it did not blow sooooo o i pulled the head had a buddy bring his porable boring bar over bored the hole pressed in a repair sleeve and bored it to the A spec. and pressed in the new sleeve never did that again.

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