TRACTOR PARTS Allis Chalmers Case & David Brown Farmall & International Ferguson Ford & New Holland John Deere Massey Ferguson Massey Harris Minneapolis Moline Oliver & Cockshutt Kubota / Yanmar

TRACTOR MANUALS

Allis Chalmers	Case	Farmall IH	Ford 8N,9N,2N	Ford
Ferguson	John Deere	Massey Ferguson	Minn. Moline	Oliver

Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum

Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the differenc

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register

Author

texasoldiron

06-27-2006 11:53:41

Report to Moderator

Need some info from you knowledgeable folks. What's the difference in the Stage I to Stage ? tractors. I know it has something to do with the live hydraulics or not. Anything else? I found a nice SM LP that has live hydraulics, battery under seat, LP tank going side to side, instead of the front to back as I usually see,(like on the 4 SMTA LP's that I have found), and disc brakes. Thanks!

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

John A.

06-27-2006 19:46:25

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to texasoldiron, 06-27-2006 11:53:41

Texoldiron, Basicly This is in in a nutshell.....
start of on a basic M then.....
Stage I SM, bigger engine, and disc brakes!
Stage II SM, all of above + Live hydrolics and batt under seat!
Stage III SM, All of above + TA and LPTO.
Stage IV SM....Yes there was one, but it was Badged...Farmall 400!
This was quoted from the Farmall Bible...Guy Fays Letter series book....page 103,
Chapter SM,SMTA,S6,SW6TA, Verses 2,3,4,5.
And Dave was right on many points Live hydrolics could be factory deleted too as was TA on Many SMTA with no TA. I just trades for 2 SMLPs one a stage I and the other a stage II. hollar if you want! ...512-577-3837.
Hope this helps.
Laater,
John A.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

texasoldiron

06-28-2006 08:07:37

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to John A., 06-27-2006 19:46:25

Hey John. WOW! A lot of info. The tractor I am looking at is in the 50,300 range, live hydraulics, battery under seat, power steering. But the moron cut the hood on the right side to mount an alternator. Thanks for all the responces.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

John A.

06-28-2006 18:00:37

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to texasoldiron, 06-28-2006 08:07:37

Tex, Sounds like you have found a diamond in the rough! Just locate a good hood at some wrecking yard, and you are on your way. The PS was added by someone, that is a nice feature to have wheather it is Charlyn or Balen.
Also remember LP motors usually don't have the wear that a gas motor would have. That is because LP a lot cleaner fuel. Good Luck on this ol'Darlin.
Later, John A.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

CNKS

06-27-2006 20:15:28

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to John A., 06-27-2006 19:46:25

Hydraulics were a factory delete or an option, but I was not aware that they could be replaced by a belly pump, it is certainly possible, but defeats IH's purpose and had no advantage, except maybe cost. Of course IH was not always logical, either. The use of Stage 1,2,3,4 is probably slang, and may have been used by IH in in-house planning, but I don't think the tractors were ever called Stage 1,2,3,4 by IH after they were built. It is mostly just a way for us to identify the different models, particularly for the Stage 1 and 2 Super H and M. SMTA and 400 had names, the two SH and SM stages were still called Super H's and M's. Note that Guy says "Stage IV BECAME the 400", emphasis mine. He also says something to the effect that "Stage III WAS the SMTA". I think the stages were used merely as a matter of description, and were never actually production names. How much do you want for the Stage 2 SM?--You are in the Austin area, a 1200 mile round trip for my 1/2 ton pickup, along with too much weight -- I'm not serious. I have made that trip many times, as I grew up south of San Antonio and have a brother in Austin.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

John A.

06-28-2006 06:18:31

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to CNKS, 06-27-2006 20:15:28

CNKS, I for one tend to lean to the idea that the stages was more of an (in house/slang) designation.
But it is the only way too desiginate between the suttle differences in the progression of the Farmall M. As it made iits way from 1939 horse drawn equipmennt, to the mid-50s and modern hydrolics, power steering, adjustable rear wheels (spin-outs).
I also agree that most of the inovations that were availabe were also made factory delets too, Strictly an economic thing, or where a farmer could get a tractor that was best suited for a particular application. My main intest is strictly in the LP versions, IH was horrible in records and such. The change in tank designs between the II and III stages was most probably to make way for the more streamlined 400 and future models that came. That basic design was never changed till the end of LP tractor production!
No, I will decline on selling my newly aquired stage II LP, This trade of two LPs has been 3 yrs in the makeing, for an ol spanish neighbor man of mine finely pulled the trigger last week. Take care, we'll vist after awhile.
Later,
John A.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Nat 2

06-28-2006 05:20:21

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to CNKS, 06-27-2006 20:15:28

I have a Super M manual, printed in late 1953, that shows a Stage II Super M with a belly pump. The battery under the seat is clearly visible, as are other telltale signs of "Stage II-ishness."

CKNS, you gotta remember that even in the early '50s, many farmers were still wary of technology, and live hydraulics were new and scary to some... Or, at least IH thought so.

Why do you think they went through so many iterations of what is basically an M with more and more stuff bolted on it between 1952 and 1958? They saw what happened to Oliver, who put too many modern innovations into their tractors before the market was ready to embrace them, and paid the price.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

John A.

06-28-2006 12:19:56

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to Nat 2, 06-28-2006 05:20:21

Nat2, Chances stand to reason yours was a factory delete! on the live hydrolics.
One also must remember that IH was somewhat recepitable to farmer wants/wims too. So to the Iowa Farmer that needs all the inovations he could get to maybe the High Plains Farmer who didn't need or want some opition or another. Or visa-versa. Also IH jumped in late in getting LP in their line up. MM had had it for yrs before IH. They saw the demand and field conversions here in the South/LP country
Case in point on a newer series I have seen more 460s with a deleted IPTO than I can count, Why do you suppose tht was deleted.That opition would have made IH money, so the only thing that made sence was tht the farmer who ordered it didn't need or want it, so it got deleted! Hope this helps. Ya'll be good!
Later,
John A.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

CNKS

06-28-2006 05:44:53

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to Nat 2, 06-28-2006 05:20:21

I retracted my statement to Dave in one of the posts below. Curious now if the Stage II SH followed the same path -- The manual for my Super H does not mention the belly pump (or at least it didn't the last time I looked at it, who knows?) but the Stage 1 had one. I assume Binder Books only sells the latest version. As to live hydraulics, I drove an H with a belly pump for maybe 5000 hours 1950-1959 -- never heard of live hydraulics, just release the clutch when you need to use them. Although I guess I did know the difference as I drove a B with an exhaust lift the 1st summer I worked on the farm. But, we thought the H was fine. If we ever discuss this again, I think I'm going to use the term Stage 1.5.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Dave Slater

06-28-2006 15:35:29

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to CNKS, 06-28-2006 05:44:53

CNKS, Have to admit I never heard the stage term used until last few years. Before then I just called them old and newer type SM. On the SH there is no inbetween for stage 2 or late SH.They came with live or no hydraulics.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Dave Slater

06-27-2006 17:48:50

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to texasoldiron, 06-27-2006 11:53:41

Tex,thats the correct way for a factory SM LP tank to be mounted. If you post serial number of tractor and engine and suffix letters here,someone can tell you more about what you have. Lot of little changes made from stage 1 to 2 SM. Most noticeable was battery box under seat,Voltage reg. located to steering post,box cover that amp gauge mounts in changed and ignition switch mounted there,Headlights to sealed beam,Operating linkage for belt pulley box starter and choke and mounting,Starters on stage 2 have switches mounted direct to starter and operated through pull rod or linkage on diesel.Stage 2 all used the same clutch housing with 3 bolt starter mounts.Stage 1 diesel used 3 bolt housing but the starter location from flywheel is a little different.Probably forgot something. Sorry I have to disagree with another poster,but all stage 2 didn't have live hydraulic,some were equiped with belley pump and there not that uncommon.They had the other changes made though whichever pump was used.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

CNKS

06-27-2006 19:53:39

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to Dave Slater, 06-27-2006 17:48:50

"Sorry I have to disagree with another poster,but all stage 2 didn't have live hydraulic,some were equiped with belley pump and there not that uncommon.They had the other changes made though whichever pump was used."

That one I'm going to have to have proof of, then I will believe it and retract my statement. Guy Fay's Letter Series Book does not mention it. If IH actually built one like that, it seems it would be indicated by a serial number suffix, although most of that type suffix wasn't used until later when the hydraulics became more sophisticated. I would like to know if anyone actually has one of those. IH sometimes did not make all the conversions at the same time, regardless of what the serial break says, if they do exist, I bet they have a low Stage 2 serial. Someone might look up the seat and the hydraulics in their parts book and see if they both occurred at the same serial number, but that might not mean much.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Dave Slater

06-27-2006 20:13:55

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to CNKS, 06-27-2006 19:53:39

If you don't want to belive all I can say is look at picture I mentioned below. I have had and still have one Stage 2 SM with no live hydraulic and can give you phone # of people with a few others.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

CNKS

06-27-2006 20:29:56

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to Dave Slater, 06-27-2006 20:13:55

Don't need any phone numbers -- the two pictures with the belly pump outlets on the left side, and the remote valve on the right side along with the serial number after the break are enough. I have just eaten everything I said, it will come out sometime tommorrow. Learn something everyday, often after I put my foot in my mouth.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

scotty

06-28-2006 06:17:47

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to CNKS, 06-27-2006 20:29:56

Mornin CNKS, No need to put foot on mouth!!! You have given 99.9% accurate info on this site for many years !!! Only humans make an occasional mistake. You are still one of the posters that I respect!!!

scotty

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Bob M

06-27-2006 12:18:09

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to texasoldiron, 06-27-2006 11:53:41

Briefly...

Stage I = belly pump (non-live) hydraulics Stage II = distributor drive live hydraulics
Stage III = live hydraulics + torque amplfier

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Nat 2

06-27-2006 12:26:02

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to Bob M, 06-27-2006 12:18:09

To add to the details...

Stage II moved the battery under the seat. Any plain Super M with the battery under the seat is a Stage II regardless of what hydraulics are installed, since both belly and distributor-drive hydraulics were optional on Stage II.

Stage II also introduced the 3-bolt starter mount.

Stage III is the Super MTA.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

CNKS

06-27-2006 17:03:14

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to Nat 2, 06-27-2006 12:26:02

No belly pump on Stage 2.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Dave Slater

06-27-2006 19:45:48

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to CNKS, 06-27-2006 17:03:14

CNKS if you look at picture of stage 2 SM for sale on the Bay, item # 120000977560 you will see its equiped with belley pump.It does have the incorrect starter added on. In a couple of the pictures you can see the bracket that was used on the rear gas tank support for the pulley gear box ,choke and starter rods.This puts them in same place they are located on stage 2 with hydraulics under tank and other type bracket bolted to reservor.Bracket in picture is only used on Stage 2 without live hydraulic.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

Nat 2

06-27-2006 19:45:00

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to CNKS, 06-27-2006 17:03:14

I have a 1953 Super M manual that says otherwise?

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

CNKS

06-27-2006 17:07:36

Report to Moderator

Re: Super M Stage I - Stage III ? What's the diffe in reply to CNKS, 06-27-2006 17:03:14

Serial break was at 28175 at the Farmall plant and 504802 at Louisville.

[Log in to Reply] [No Email]

[Options] [Printer Friendly] [Posting Help] [Return to Forum] [Log in to Reply]

TRACTOR PARTS	TRACTOR MANUALS

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home | Forums

Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy