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Need Help on New Idea Loader

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Triker

09-06-2006 12:42:22

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This is the first time posting pictures so lets see if it will work. I am having issues getting the cylinders to work when hooked to the belly pump. Can someone tell me if I need breather caps on this loader. I took the allen wrench screw out on the top and the oil came out as I ran the lift. Also, as you can see, one cylinder is out and the other is in. This is an H5 New Idea loader. Thanks for your help.

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Dr.EVIL

09-07-2006 08:06:35

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 12:42:22

That's a nice looking '40 or '41 H. I can't tell for sure but I don't think You have the loader plumbed correctly. It looks to me like Your only supplying oil to the left cylinder but I can't see in any of the pictures how You have the hoses connected at the bottom of that left cylinder. Be VERY careful with that loader and the hydraulic system. If You raise Your 3-point and hook up the loader and refill the LiftAll You also run the risk of over-filling the LiftAll and I have heard of H's & M's being blown into two pieces when the LiftAll housing explodes when a heavy load is dropped with a one-way hyd. system. Farmers in the Midwest used to have hyd. hog carts to move hogs around that raised & lowered with hydraulics and 10,000# of hogs in one dropping makes for a LOT of pressure. Your 3-point or loader could do the same. Also those loaders are hard on the chassis of Your H. The cylinders use the chassis of Your H to lever against and the clutch housings have been known to crack & break from the force. Under a heavy lift the bottoms of the cylinders push down and forward and shove the lift lever it's hooked to up and back. Imagine how You "Crack an Egg"? Those 65 yr old castings are a LOT stonger in compression than they are in tension.

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Nat 2

09-07-2006 06:01:27

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 12:42:22

What happens when you pull the lever? Does the tractor grunt, and a funny noise come out of the belly pump?

That funny noise is the relief valve. It's tripping because the hydraulic fluid can't flow into the cylinders.

It's VERY likely that you need a return line from the tops of the cylinders to the fill pipe on your belly pump. The belly pump doesn't hold enough oil to completely extend the cylinders by itself, and it was a common practice in those days to use the tops of the cylinders as external reservoirs.

Run hoses from the allen plug holes to a T, then connect that T to the fill pipe on your belly pump. Your cylinders should extend. They may not retract without the weight of the loader on them, though.

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Hermit

09-07-2006 19:47:35

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Nat 2, 09-07-2006 06:01:27

Respectfully Nat, connecting anything to the allen plug holes won't work. I've rebuilt those actuators before and they consist of a 4 foot long steel rod inside the cylinder with no floating piston to separate any kind of fluid chambers. Fluid fills the complete cylinder and forces the ram out with the seals in the gland nut keeping the pressure in. If hoses are connected to the allen plug holes and back to the reservoir, the actuators won't lift because the fluid entering in the bottom will just flow out the top without developing any pressure in the cylinders.

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Hermit

09-06-2006 20:16:48

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 12:42:22

I have the same loader on my M. The actuators are ram type actuators. There are 2 'O' ring seals in the large gland nut that screws into the top of the actuator. The set screw is just there to bleed the actuators and needs to be installed-no breather. Hydraulic fluid under pressure goes in the bottom of the actuator when you move the control rod to lift the bucket, filling the cylinder and forcing the ram upward carrying the bucket with the rams. The weight of the bucket lowers it. Mine is set up with the hydraulic hose coming off the left front outlet port, then tees off into two hoses, one to the bottom of each actuator. That way they will lift at the same time. If the belly pump on your H holds the same quantity fluid as an M (I'm not sure), there's enough fluid to lift the bucket to the top of the actuators without air getting into the system and causing a spongy effect. Have fun.

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Keith-OR

09-06-2006 18:19:35

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 12:42:22

Triker, Is that left cylinder ram that is extended out as rusty as it looks in the picture? 1. If it is you need to get some imery cloth and polish it up as much as you can, because if the wipers and seal aren't already distoryed they surely will be in short order.
2. Cylinders look like single stage to me. If when you remove plug at the top of cylinder, you have hydraulic fluid coming out, you have bad seals on the main ram. Will need to rebuild or have someone rebuild them for you...

Keith & Shawn

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randy hall

09-06-2006 13:49:12

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 12:42:22

the horn loader was the 'cadillac' of the trip bucket loaders. you will need a two spool valve or unhook your three point. you can't use both at once with your h's original hydraulics. the plugs on the top of the cylinders are vents to let trapped air out. and by the way your h's hydraulic won't hold enough oil to lift the loader all the way.i have had one of these on a m with power steering for years. it will lift a five bottom plow.

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Triker

09-06-2006 13:54:59

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to randy hall, 09-06-2006 13:49:12

Thanks Randy. Yes, I plan on unhooking the 3pt and then use the loader. Do I replace the allen wrench plugs with breather caps? This is where I am confused. Do you think it will lift 5 or 6 feet up with the oil in the pump?

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randy hall

09-06-2006 14:45:19

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 13:54:59

yes the loader should lift that high but every time you lift it enough to run the sump out of oil the pump will put some air into the cylinders and the loader will be 'spongee'. you loosen the plugs at the top of the cylinders only to let trapped air out then tighten back up. if you would put breathers in the plug holes all the oil would come shooting out when you raisse the loader.

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Triker

09-06-2006 14:53:29

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to randy hall, 09-06-2006 14:45:19

Thanks Randy. I guess there is something else wrong with the cylinders because I tried just letting the air out and then tightened them back up. Nothing. Plus I have the one cylinder stuck open. I wonder if the cylinders are bad. Sorry I am new to tractors and hydraulics and do not understand fully yet. Sorry for my ignorance.

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Janicholson

09-06-2006 13:26:01

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 12:42:22

The cylinders need to be connected to the belly pump either with a "T" going into the connection shown to now be connected to a rear remote. A shutoff valve, or diverter valve could be used to shut off rear hydraulics while using the loader. The other way is to use the port on the front left and the port on the right to attach the loader lift hoses to. Oil might come out of the top of the cylinders if the top of the cylinders were being used as a resivoir to increase the volume in the belly pump. The top ports (if any) get connected to either the filler pipe with a new "T" there, or into the drain of the belly pump with a "T" there. compressing the cylinder when connected and the control rod is all the way forward should collapse the cylinder if cannected as above. Good luck. JimN

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Triker

09-06-2006 13:31:13

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Janicholson, 09-06-2006 13:26:01

Thanks Jim. These are old pictures from last month. I unhooked my 3pt which works fine and then hooked up the loader. I had nothing when I did that. I unscrewed the upper allen wrench plug at the top of the cylinder and operated the lever and that is when the oil blew out. I replaced the plug and tried again and nothing. I only want one way cylinder so I am thinking I dont need a return to the pump but I could be wrong.

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janicholson

09-07-2006 16:03:24

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 13:31:13

Your system is only one way unless you do some plumbing, and replace the cylinders. If oil is on top of the cylinder, it should be drained off and left empty. As others have indicated, the rust must be removed if it is in fact there. 400 grit silicon carbide paper, and work around the shaft, never up and down. There are diagrams of two way systems in the archives. JimN

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Triker

09-06-2006 12:46:31

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 12:42:22

Third picture

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Triker

09-06-2006 12:43:53

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Re: Need Help on New Idea Loader in reply to Triker, 09-06-2006 12:42:22

Second picture

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