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Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions

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P Backus

09-23-2006 17:54:40




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Well gang, I went and test drove a 1086 today, so I have some questions.
He had just replaced the clutch and TA and hydraulic pump and cab interior (he bought it to fix and sell). It"s a "77 model. Good points:
Looks pretty good
engine popped right off and ran beautifully (although the engine block was still warm when I got there), turbo sounds good
shifted smoothly, not sloppy or noisy in any gear
nice 20.8 tires
good interior
complete, straight, doesn"t look abused, has 3 point, DH, 540/
1000
Questions and concerns:
TA freewheels on low side backlash- I thought they didn"t freewheel anymore after they went to the hydraulic TA??? My 706 doesn"t.
the bit of blow by that there was came in rythmic puffs, making me think that one cylinder had an "issue"- again, it ran great with no ticking and pulled strongly in high gear
front spindle arms were loose on both sides
when I drove it I listened for rear end noise, but I"m not familiar enough with these to know what is normal (it sounded better than my 4166 gears, but what wouldn"t?) When in high range, high gear (with windows open, T-Vet), I could hear a bit of a whine that would let up when you backed off the throttle, of course. Didn"t seem to be an abnormal amount of lash when backing off the throttle (or vice versa), but there was some there. When I let it slow down in high gear until the engine was just about 800 RPM, and then give "er, you could hear the gears grumble, but then a lot of tractors will in that situation (you should hear my Magnum if I lug it a bit like that). I never could "feel" the gears rattle or whine, so are those normal sounds?
I"m hoping to drive a different one early this next week and that should give me a point of comparison.
No duals, no weights, offered to me for $11,700
Dunno- whadaya think?
Paul

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Jim Allen

09-24-2006 06:02:22




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to P Backus, 09-23-2006 17:54:40  
P. Backus- I can't comment too much on the tractor itself, 'cause I know less than you do about it, but I can talk about buying stuff in general. My state of alert always goes up when I'm dealing with guys who buy something to fix up and sell. My experience has been that you really have to watch for cut corners on the repairs. The tractor has a market value, so whatever he does, plus a little profit, cannot exceed that value. The trouble is, as the Vet said, you don't really know the extent of the repairs needed to a "fixer-upper" and you could find that you'll have more invested that the unit is worth. That's when a guy's basic sense of honesty will be tested. Some guys pass the test, others don't. Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but it jumped out at me to answer.

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P Backus

09-24-2006 12:24:37




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to Jim Allen, 09-24-2006 06:02:22  
Hi Jim, thanks for your comments. I agree and don"t like to buy things from jockeys because they often make it their business to "not know" anything about the item so they can claim ignorance of any problems. This guy seems okay, and the tractor is already supposed to be "fixer-uppered", but it seems like there may be some issues. You are right that in order to come out on it, the fixer-upper person has to always watch the bottom line.
Paul

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Allan In NE

09-24-2006 05:50:16




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to P Backus, 09-23-2006 17:54:40  
Hi Paul,

I divide these old tractors into two categories to keep 'em straight in my head because they are built completely different.

The small frame tractors (656, 666 and 686) have square rear axle housings, have a mechanically controlled T/A incorporating a planetary set and they normally will "over-run" while in T/A because of the way in which they are designed.

The large frame guys (six-sided rear axle housings) have a hydraulic controlled T/A as you know, and they should not over run.

You should feel a definite "shift-to-low" when you pull that stick back. If not, there is something squirrely going on with that low-side clutch pack or the hydraulic feed to it. Did the steering/brakes/drive train act okay when you shifted the stick? Did you feel any kind of a “jerk” or “hesitation” in the power steering when you shifted? If so, perhaps he should have replaced that front hydraulic pump also?

I wouldn’t give the blow-by a second glance unless it reminded you of a mosquito fogger. Would be more concerned whether or not there is any ant-freeze present in the oil.

A normal low-volumed rear end whine is completely normal. You’ve been on enough tractors and you’ll know when there is something abnormal about the gearing.

I’d go back and drive ‘er again. The second inspection always seems to give better insight. :>)

Again, this is just my opinion,

Allan

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P Backus

09-24-2006 12:39:13




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to Allan In NE, 09-24-2006 05:50:16  
Hi Allan-That makes sense to me. I"ve heard you explain about the small frame/large frame differences before and when I think about it, that is the difference between the two T/As. I never put two and two together. (Not a 2+2 - that"s a different tractor ;>)
I didn"t feel any effects in the steering or other hydraulics when shifting the T/A and he said he put a new hyd pump on, although that may be a different one???
It didn"t look like anything was in the oil, as it was just clear, black oil (you know what I mean- no antifreeze residue). The blowby wasn"t excessive, but just that it came in puffs.
How about you? Did you get that 1066 home yet?
Paul

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JakeF

09-23-2006 18:31:10




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to P Backus, 09-23-2006 17:54:40  
The T/A should'nt freewheel. If your interested go back unanounced and start it up cold, and it should'nt miss or sputter at all unless it's 20* or less outside. They all have some blowby, but unless you had your hand real close to the end of the tube it should'nt have much of a pulse. Compare it to your 706 and you'll get an idea. It will have more, but not a lot. You should'nt hardly even feel it at idle from a foot away. Does it have the old style out of the block or the updated breather out of the valve cover? If the front end is loose on the spindles your looking at a grand at least to fix it up right. I'd be willing to bet it also needs the center pivot and steering cylinder bushings done also. For the price their asking you could find a better deal out here. Jake

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P Backus

09-23-2006 21:07:07




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to JakeF, 09-23-2006 18:31:10  
Hi Jake,
The blowby was coming out in visible puffs, although it wasn"t pouring out (like a DT466 powered tractor I"ve looked at in the past) On my own DT 436 tractor, the blowby just kind of drifts out rather than coming out in puffs. I think on this one the tube comes out of the side cover (lifter cover), rather than out of the valve cover, although I could be wrong. It was a DT414, not a DT 415.
It did seem like there was some play in the steering, so I"m sure you"re right about that. Have you ever worked with those aftermarket spindle arms (A&I, I think) that have tapered splines that are meant to correct the loose spindle problem? Do they work okay?
So which TAs will freewheel and which don"t? What the difference?
Thanks for your help!
Paul

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the tractor vet

09-23-2006 18:15:35




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to P Backus, 09-23-2006 17:54:40  
Well let see here T/A does not hold back in low side , T/A is OUT he is lyen thru his teeth Second off pops wright off but the engine block was warm , He had her warmed up way before ya got there , puffen smoke out the breather , Huston we got a problem here . Can't hear much noise even with the windows open , well ya had better take someone with ya to drive it while you are standing on the ground and listening because YA CAN"T HEAR STUFF with that cab even with the windows open, Been there done that and Got a real education on buying a 86 seires as a fixer upper . Yep she was a fixer upper from the rad. cap to the PTO and i still don't have that one up and running . Best advice i can give ya is RUNNNNN nnnnn n as far and as fast as ya can on this one .

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P Backus

09-23-2006 21:26:16




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to the tractor vet, 09-23-2006 18:15:35  
Thanks for your help on this.
Which TAs were the ones that freewheel? The old mechanical ones did (SW6TA, MTA) but a 706 does not, but a 656 does. What"s the difference? Were those the spragueless ones or should all 86 series be non-freewheeling? (That"s pretty much what you said, but I was just wondering which.....) TA pulls well in both low and high, just doesn"t hold back in low.
I always do like to be the first one to start the engine cold so I can see how it starts, etc, and even before I start it, to see how the oil looks (signs of antifreeze) and other things. I was told the neighbor was using it to haul loads, and I believe it, but the fact remains that it was warm when I got there.
Yeah, I don"t want to buy a problem waiting to happen, so I"ll have to drive a number of these to see what I can see. Then I ought to have a better sense of what the "normal" sounds are.
Thank you!
Paul

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the tractor vet

09-24-2006 08:13:37




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to P Backus, 09-23-2006 21:26:16  
Well once they went into as Allen calls them the large frame tractors from the 706up the hyd. T/A's had the HOLD back in the low side of the T/A but on the smaller ones 656-686 still had the OLD style mech. T/A and would Free Wheel in the low side . Now as far as any noises from the transmision or rear end while in the cab believe me when i tell ya unless there are teeth missing you will not hear them . Heck the 1486 that i bought i bought knowing that the T/A was OUT as i for some reason that i can not explain i enjoy installing T/A's , well i drove this tractor and checked it out with the side winder open and also the back window open and did not hear the miss in the engine or the noise from the trans mission . Until a friend came over and told me while i was moving the tractor around the yard that it was missing and i had him drive it around THEN i heard thinks that turned my blood ice cold and dug real deep into my check book . Then once i started working on it the more i pulled apart the deeper i had to go . the speed transmission took every gear all new bearing and BOTH shafts then the engine took a new cam and lifetrs and a couple rocker and push tubes . So my 6500 dollar 1486 was getting more expencive by the day then we got into the rebuild of the ft. end everything was plum wore out and yes i have used a bunch of A&I parts and was well pleased with the parts , and yes i have used the tapered under sized arms they are on my buddys 1066 and have been on there for ten years or so now and they are doing just fine . His spindels were in bad shape and it was a gambel that we took to try and save a few dollars and has worked well . I installed new bushings and thrust bearings in his old knees put in a new piviot pin , rebult the steering cylinder with all the bushings and bolts new tie rod ends and those undersized tapper arms . What is hard on the ft. ends is alwas running with a full rack of weights . The only time that we have weights on the ft. is for plowen after the plowing is done the ft. weights come off . . this will save the ft. axel from undue ware like disken or field culivating over plowed or chisled ground those ft weights make the ft. take a harder beating then if it just rolls over the rough ground. So this 1086 that you are looking at it has more problems then this guy is telling you . When i sold a tractor that i worked on and had installed a new clutch and T/A the warranty for that work was transfered to the new owner . ON 706's they got a stanard T/A and a std. clutch the t/a had a two year warranty and anything bigger got the the HD units and had a three year warranty . IF i bought and sold a tractor that i realy did not have to do much to say like a new alt. and battery and a few lites fixed then you got it AS IS and i would tell ya that yopu were buying it that way , but evey tractor that i sold was tested in the field for atleast one day if not more . If that tractor did not suit me then it got shipped off to a auction and sold as is buy it to love it . Believe me when i tell ya that i have gotten hammered on some tractors but that is all part of the game and ya learn sometimes the hard way on what to look for.

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P Backus

09-24-2006 13:07:10




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to the tractor vet, 09-24-2006 08:13:37  
Thanks, that does clear up a lot of things.
That nice, quiet cab is the main reason I"m interested in the 86 series! It"s funny that it can cause such a problem hearing the things you need to hear. I alway like to be able to hear the machine that I"m pulling,too. But then I guess that"s just me- I don"t like to run things into the ground because I couldn"t hear the bearing noise or the belt slipping, or that little ominous ticking sound.
This guy did say that he would turn in the warranty for the clutch and T/A with the new owner"s name on it, like you said.
Maybe I should wait until you have your 1486 all done and then double your money on it- give you $13,000! (I"ll bet you have more in it than that already!)
By the way, would it have been possible for him to have put in a lighter duty mechanical T/A? I"m guessing no, but??
Paul

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the tractor vet

09-24-2006 15:15:39




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 Re: Jake F, T-Vet, or anyone- 1086 questions in reply to P Backus, 09-24-2006 13:07:10  
Now but he could have put in a STD T/A and like i said before i never used them but on a 706 GASSER if it had the diesel it got the HD T/A . Now on my buddys 706 that we redid the 263 to a 291 she got the HD unit BECAUSE I KNOW HOW HE CAN BE on equipment . But on that 1086 there is something realy wrong as the sprag is out or the low side has no pressure going to the clutch pack and leaning more to the no pressure on that side SOOOooooo the thinks HE need to check is if he cut the O/Rings on the supply tubes when he was installing them or a blowen gskt or O/Ring in the MCV if he got his grubby littel fingers in there and did not know what he was doing and with out me checking it out i can not say for sure . But from what you are telling me sofar is that he is tryen to be a JOCKY and he is tryen to make money at it . Food for thought here if ya can do this kind of work on one of these tractors and have the time to mess around with it over the winter and a nice warm place to do this then start going to the sales and find one that needs work and build it into a well working tractor the way you want it . It is not like ya can't ask the questions and get a good stright answer from me or even when nessary call me on the land line in the evenings and talk one on one . As far as my 1486 that one has tryed my temper and i had to walk away from it for awhile as when i was tryen to get it done to resale it nobody wanted to buy tractors as i was tryen real hard to sell it even for what i had in the price of the tractor plus just the parts with no labor . Now as to what mine needs is to reseal the clutch cylinder install a new A/C compressor and charge the system paint it and put new hides on the back so that is about 28-2900 more that needs to be spent on it

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