Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
:

Super M Ignition: Won't run same way twice?

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Dennis Gauge

10-23-2006 09:15:40




Report to Moderator

Dad"s working on a weird problem with his Super M. One day it started running like crap, missing and sputtering. Turns out the rear seal on the live hydraulic pump was leaking, and the distributor was full of oil.

Problem solved, right? Nope. He replaced the seal, then cleaned and dried out the (Prestolite) distributor. Tractor ran like a dream, until the next time he started it up: Ratta-tat-tat-chugga-chugga-pop-pop-pop!

Convinced he couldn"t get parts for this distributor, he bought an IH distributor my uncle had laying around, rebuilt it with all new parts, installed it. Tractor ran great, didn"t miss a beat.

Next time he went to start it, it started doing the same thing all over again. Replaced all the maintenance parts, again. Tractor ran great until the next time he started it up again.

New coil. Tractor purred like a kitten that day... You can guess what came next.

This time he replaced the springs in the mechanical advance, and once again, it ran great... until he started it up again a few days later of course!

Now he can"t get it to run right no matter what he fiddles with. He"s convinced that this distributor is bad and is going to rebuild the Prestolite to try that...

Any ideas? I"m afraid he"s chasing his tail and this is a cam or valve issue...

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Nebraska Cowman

10-23-2006 16:47:35




Report to Moderator
 Re: Super M Ignition: Won't run same way twice? in reply to Dennis Gauge, 10-23-2006 09:15:40  
I had a neighbor that was convinced his M had jumped time. All it was was too long a screw holding the condenser. It was fouling the mechanical advance.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
El Toro

10-23-2006 15:55:11




Report to Moderator
 Re: Super M Ignition: Won't run same way twice? in reply to Dennis Gauge, 10-23-2006 09:15:40  
I would try a new condenser. Has this tractor been convert to 12 volts? Is a ballast resistor
being used between the ignition switch and the coil? Hal



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
neblinc

10-23-2006 09:54:56




Report to Moderator
 Re: Super M Ignition: Won't run same way twice? in reply to Dennis Gauge, 10-23-2006 09:15:40  
Here is John T's excellent troubleshooting step by step guide.
After trying this, you should check to see if it is fuel related, bad gas, no fuel, plugged carb etc.

TROUBLESHOOTING A BATTERY POWERED EXTERNAL COIL TYPE IGNITION SYSTEM:

PRELIMINARY CHECKS:

(A) To see if it happens to be a cap n rotor problem and to see if at least the coil is firing, remove the coil wire from the distributor (leave coil end intact) and place its bare end to within 1/8 inch from tractor iron, turn her on n crank her over, and see if she jumps that gap with a good visible blue spark????? If so but the plug wire ends (from wire end to 1/8 inch to frame) or the plugs themselves don’t fire, its a cap n rotor or plug wire problem. If the coil wire isnt even sparking, see below.

(B) Next open the cap and see that the points are gapped correct and indeed opening and closing as the engine is cranked and the distributor shaft rotates and MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY !!!!! !!!!! If so, running a point file between them to clean them up might make her run again HOWEVER that’s only a temporary cure, so if that cleaning makes her spark, INSTALL N GAP NEW POINTS. In the event they appear good but only gray oxide coated, non abrasively clean/buff/polish them using say a dollar bill or shop cloth etc. and see what happens.


MORE TROUBLESHOOTING IF ALL THE ABOVE STILL FAILS TO MAKE HER SPARK


1) THE VERY FIRST THING YOU GOTTA HAVE is voltage to be present on the coils high supply (NOT to distributor) terminal when you turn the Ignition switch ON. If not she cant ever fire, but in the event the ignition switch or circuit/wire down to the coil or any Ballast Resistor is bad or open, you can HOT WIRE it by jumping a hot ungrounded battery voltage source to the coils high input supply (NOT to distributor) side n see if she runs then???? If she fires hot wired, you could have a bad ignition switch ((That can happen, when Ignition is on, the switches IGN terminal must turn hot)),,,,, ,or an open Ballast (if it has one) or a bad/open wire from switch to coil.

If the switch is good, if you turn the ignition switch on and place a test lamp on the coils high (NOT to distributor) terminal SHE MUST LIGHT UP. If not again, look for an open Ballast Resistor (if it has one, it should read around 1.25 to 2 ohms across its terminals) or bad/open wires from the switches IGN output down to the Ballast (if it has one) and distributor.


2a) When the Ignition switch is turned on, voltage should appear on the coils high input side. That would be 6 volts on a straight 6 volt system or 12 volts on a 12 volt non external ballasted system, or around 6 volts on a 12 volt system that used a 6 volt coil plus an external Ballast Resistor and the coil is good and the points are closed and they and ALL wiring is good.

2b) To insure the coils low voltage primary winding is not bad/
open, use an ohmmeter and measure its DC resistance between its lil + and -terminals. If its an open circuit (no continuity) its bad/open and will NOT work. It should measure around 1.25 to 2 ohms or so if its a 6 volt coil and maybe 2.5 to 3.5 if its a 12 volt internally ballasted coil. NOTE CAUTION have all leads and any voltage source DISCONNECTED FROM the coil for this simple primary winding continuity test.

3) Next, place your voltmeter or test lamp over on the coils other low to distributor terminal side, turn her on and crank the engine over.

4) A test lamp there should flash ON (when points are open) and OFF (when points are closed) as the engine is cranked slowly.

5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/
open,,,,, ,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,, ,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,, ,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,, ,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,, ,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,, ,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor.

She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.

Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor.

SUMMARY

Be sure the points are closing fully and open on high cam and ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY,,,,, ,theres voltage present on distributors high side at all times when ignitions on (or its a bad switch or open ballast or bad wiring to col),,,,, ,voltage on coils low side flashes on and off as distributor is cranked,,,,, ,,,condensors not bad/
shorted,,,,, ,,no shorts in wires to points and no shorts in pass thru side out distributor stud,,,,, ,,coil has continuituy.

You may luck out n just need a new set of points. If the coil wire fires (see above) and the plug wire ends to 1/8 from frame but NOT the plugs, they are baddddd ddddd . Check them BOTH.

Good Luck n God Bless, post back any questions and your findings and any questions.


John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks over on the Mother Deere boards versus over here on the “dark side”.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob M

10-23-2006 09:47:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: Super M Ignition: Won't run same way twice? in reply to Dennis Gauge, 10-23-2006 09:15:40  
Dennis – You might be on the right track thinking it might be a cam/valve timing issue!

Depending on how it is used the live pump on the Super M puts a very heavy load on the cam drive gear. Cam gear retaining nuts can loosen, or even unscrew completely and fall off. This causes either woodruff key in the gear hub to shear or the gear hub to break. After this happens the tractor may still run, but will run erratically and poorly. Also it may run differently upon each startup since the crank rocking backward each time it stops repositions the cam drive gear relative to the camshaft and hence changes the valve/ignition timing.

The fact the engine won’t start now indicates the camshaft is too far out of time for the engine to run at all.

----

A couple things to try:

1 - Remove the rocker box. Turn the crank by hand until the TDC (single notch) timing mark on the crank pulley is aligned with the pointer. Now check the valves on #1 and #4 cylinders. Both push rods on one of the cylinders should be free - doesn’t matter which cylinder - indicating the valves are closed. If not it means the camshaft is out of time.

2 - Mark the position of the distributor rotor then pull the distributor/live pump assembly from the engine. The cam drive gear is visible just inside timing cover. Use your finger or a screwdriver on the cam gear and see it can be moved around. If it moves at all it’s either loose on the camshaft or the gear hub has broken.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Dennis Gauge

10-23-2006 12:40:29




Report to Moderator
 Re: Super M Ignition: Won't run same way twice? in reply to Bob M, 10-23-2006 09:47:08  
The nut came loose on the cam gear once before on this tractor. That time it didn't run bad, it just knocked like a rod was going bad. We tore the front end off and loctited the snot out of it. Think maybe it got loose again and wallowed the keyway, eh?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob M

10-24-2006 05:38:28




Report to Moderator
 Re: Super M Ignition: Won't run same way twice? in reply to Dennis Gauge, 10-23-2006 12:40:29  
That's what I'm thinking Dennis...

I've run across wallowed out/busted cam gear hubs on several different Super M's and a 400's. The 400 in fact busted it's cam gear twice...



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy