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Super A - new pistons. won't turn

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RCA 49SA

11-25-2006 13:57:34




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49SA smoker. Had head rebuilt with new valves etc. and I put in new rings. Honed sleeves and they looked good. Did not check crank and put in old bearings torqued to 40lbs. Got everything back together and can barely turn by hand even with plugs out and rocker off and battery (6Volt) definitely won't budge. Have oil in cylinders now but did this when putting pistons back in.

Used to turn over just fine. Double checked installation of pistons and bearings to make sure they were in right direction before putting it together. Afraid this could be a slipped bearing when I reinstalled or something.

Any recommendations or ideas before I drain oil and pull the pan? Hate to loose the head gasket if I have to pull the pistons. Should have spun over before I put it together this far.

Help!

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the Unforgiven

11-26-2006 15:55:25




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-25-2006 13:57:34  
Hey RCA, when assembling an engine it is a good idea to measure the lbs. of torque that are required to rotate the crankshaft after each piston assembly is installed. If you put in a couple and they add say 7 lbs. each and the next one adds 25, you know that you have something not quite right. It can be a hassle on an in-frame overhaul, but can be done using the crank or PTO in your case.



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ljan

11-26-2006 05:45:17




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-25-2006 13:57:34  

your local sears store or parts store sells a tool that removes carbon from ringgroves in pistons.a must for new rings in old pistons. if you don"t have excess to either real close you can break old rings using sharp end as scraper. new tool being best.



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El Toro

11-26-2006 05:15:46




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-25-2006 13:57:34  
If your oil rings were 2 thin rails with an expander this could be a problem too. If the butt
ends of the expander aren't butted together and the oil ring rails are installed this will cause the rails to protrude farther out. The rings if installed correctly should be free to move within the grooves (lans) on the pistons. When you remove the pistons remove the piston rings from one piston and slide them one at a time into one of your tractor's sleeve. Then measure the end gap on each ring from that piston. It should be
from .010" to .018". If they're more than .018" the sleeve is probably worn. Hal

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RCA 49SA

11-26-2006 06:17:30




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to El Toro, 11-26-2006 05:15:46  
Thanks Hal. The oil ring was a single ring with a thin expander strip that goes under that. I will definitely check the gap prior to putting it back in. The new ring was exactly the same look as the old one (except the old one had no expander which is strange to me). I got the rings from my IH dealer but do no remember the make.

Any recommendations on other rings? Can the oil ring be bought by itself or are they always sold as a kit?

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El Toro

11-26-2006 07:06:50




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-26-2006 06:17:30  
You can check with your local auto parts store to see if they sell individual piston rings. I was wondering if those rings are .010" oversize that you installed on your pistons. You should be able to tell when you install them in the sleeve since the ring gap will be near zero. Hal
PS: I bought individual rings for old garden tractors from our local auto parts store. They need the piston diameter and the width of the rings.

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Pa. Pete

11-25-2006 21:07:50




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-25-2006 13:57:34  
I rebuilt a VW engine in the 70's, and the pistons went in so tight I could hardly budge them. Carbon in the ring grooves was the entire problem. It was my first rebuild and I didn't know better. Couldn't believe the amount of carbon when I started scraping it out. Did you clean the grooves?



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RCA 49SA

11-26-2006 04:56:29




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to Pa. Pete, 11-25-2006 21:07:50  
Thanks. I cleaned them just with a small screwdriver and making sure they turned when oiled. I thought about this too and should have done a better job on that. Planning on pulling the pistons this week and hoping to get them out without busting the rings or losing the head gasket. Will be spotless this time.

The puzzler here to me is that the rings (which I am sure I put in correctly, right side up etc.) looked exactly the same except there was no expander under the oil ring before. I mean nothing at all.

Is it best to just put engine oil in the sleeves before putting the pistons back or some other lube? They were a really tight fit before and had to punch them down. Sounds like they were not cleaned good enough in the grooves to me too. Was much more free with the old rings.

Thanks for the advice. Hating to pull it apart again but better safe than sorry!

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KEB

11-26-2006 12:10:45




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-26-2006 04:56:29  
Shouldn't take more than taps with something like a wooden hammer handle to push the pistons into the sleeves. Did you use a ring compressor? Looks like you got lots of good advice on things to check, just make sure when you put them back they're not overly tight. Engine oil in the sleeves first is a good idea.

While I had it apart, I'd change the rod & main bearings also, or at the very least the rod bearings. If you tighten up the top end, it'll put more stress on the bottom end & you'll likely be replacing bearings before too much longer anyway.

Did you check bearing clearances with plastigage?

Keith

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Gauger

11-25-2006 16:26:45




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-25-2006 13:57:34  
I had a SA seize up on me a few years back. Turned out to be a small piece of debris that got in between the governor pinion and bearing shell and it stopped the engine cold at three quarter throttle. Don't know where it came from as I had the block and head tanked. It's a long shot but worth checking.



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teddy52food

11-25-2006 15:16:31




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-25-2006 13:57:34  
Did you get the bearing caps mixed up. Did you clean out the ring grooves before you put the rings on the pistons?



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RCA 49SA

11-25-2006 17:29:41




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 UPDATE: Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to teddy52food, 11-25-2006 15:16:31  
I did the pistons one at a time so did not get them or the bearing caps mixed up. I just got in from pulling the pan and loosening each cap, checking the bearings, regreasing and putting each on only finger tight. Still hard to turn by hand. Has to be the rings or pistons I guess.

New rings looked just like the old one except the old oil ring had no expander and the new one did. I put in the expander. The pistons were really tight going in and I thought this was a good thing!

I will check the block tomorrow for other issues but expect to be pulling the head again.

1. Used copper spray on the head gasket. Can this be used again after I pull it without problems?

2. If I drive out the pistons, will the rings stay okay or am I looking at another set?

This should not be this tough. Wish I had gone ahead with new sleeves and pistons with matching rings at this point and may yet end up there!

Any other ideas?????

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El Toro

11-25-2006 19:04:16




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 Re: UPDATE: Re: Super A - new pistons. won't tur in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-25-2006 17:29:41  
Check those oil rings to make sure they're free in the groove on the pistons. Hal



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El Toro

11-25-2006 14:09:35




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 Re: Super A - new pistons. won't turn in reply to RCA 49SA, 11-25-2006 13:57:34  
Did you check the ring gap on your new rings?
I would pull the oil pan and loosen all your bearing caps and see if that frees up the engine.
Were the bearing inserts installed on the same place from where they were removed? Hal



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