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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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I Give Up

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JayWalt

01-01-2007 15:45:51




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Well guys, I was so happy about getting my generator working after cleaning it up. Well today I went out to adjust the regulator like was discussed. I couldnt get it to charge at 7-7.2 volts. Either it wouldnt charge at all or charge at 7.5 and cllimb up to about 8.2. I quit trying to adjust it when the generator quit working. I have a feeling there is a bad connection inside the windings that I cannot get to. I rechecked the brushes made sure they were against the comm and it still dont work. I checked the 3rd brush and it is fixed, not adjustable. I Just GIVE UP!! I've spent too much time on this charging system. I cannot afford to be dumping 300$ in a generator rebuild. Nor Would I when all they have available is the relay type regulators. I would have thought after 50 years they would have developed either a solid state switcher to emulate a relay type so there would be no contacts to go bad, or a truely linear regulator.
The old charging systems are so flawed. They were great in their time, but technology has changed. Alterntors dont generate their power from the armature windings and push 80 amps through the comm/brushes. These old generators push 20 amps through the comm/brushes. It's just not worth it.

I thought about converting one of my old externally regulated 12v alternators to 6v. I'm not sure how feesible that is. I dont want to convert to 12v because I have no headlights and I dont wanna spend any more money.

For now I will just use my 6v charger/maintaner to keep the battery charged between uses. It came from an older backup light system, It does a fast charge when required then goes into a float charge state. Pretty nice.

Only bad thing is any nighttime driving is going to be short term. It would probably be a good idea to put a voltmeter on here to monitor voltages in case I do need to run the headlights.

I give up. Unless someone has a generator that will fit a 300u that they want to donate and throw in a $8.10 flat rate box. Doubtful, But I figured I'd throw it out there.

Once again, Thanks for the help with helping me figure out what is going on. If I had known then what I know now, I'm not so sure if I'd have bought this thing. I've put alot of time/money into it. If I get lucky, I'll break even when I sell it sometime in the future. I'll still try to enjoy her. Let's just hope something fatal doesnt happen. If It does, then I'm probably out of the tractor scene for quite some time =. Not so sure How I'd feel about that.

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Brownie450

01-03-2007 08:56:17




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
Rear main seals aren't fun--no matter how you look at it. Generators are a lot lighter & can be worked at standing up. I see that you found out it wasn't a main seal after all in the later post. Sigh of relief.



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Janicholson

01-02-2007 09:17:38




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
Go to a library and look up delco type A generators in either tractor, or auto books from the 50s. (common as fenceposts) you will note that the system is not overly complex as a diagram, it is just the reality of the actual parts that seem inscrutable. If it will not charge with the field grounded, it may not be getting the cutout relay to close. There is a pull in winding on the cutout relay that senses voltage from residual magnetism in the field and connects the armature with the battery. This process starts the generator. If the regulator is not grounded to the tractor frame/engine/generator, it will not pull in the cutout relay.
To see if this is the case, disconnect the A terminal from the gen, then use a jumper wire from the battery neg terminal to then just touch the armature terminal for a half second. There should be a spark (pretty healthy, but not a direct short) this spark tells you that the armature is able to conduct current through the windings to internal ground. (probably good output components in the gen) Next disconnect the F terminal from the Gen and use a ohm meter to see if it conducts from the F terminal to the third brush. If it does, (no resistance <1ohm) the field circuit is probably OK. and the regulator (or its ground) is the problem.

Note of importance Farmers were often functionally able to do these types of repairs as a part of operating and Keeping their stuff functional. There is no reason you cannot.

It is one component of the hobby that many of us treasure. Please do not despare. JimN

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F-Dean

01-02-2007 06:25:58




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
BIG JOHN has been putting a 12-volt Hitachi #14231 alternator on several tractors in place of a generator under the hood. This alternator was used on 1978-79 Nissan 620 pickup with a 2 liter engine and a 1980 Nissan 720 pickup with a 2 liter engine. At NAPA it is part #2138130. The cost of a rebuilt alternator is approximately $50 + core (And they won’t take a generator as a core). The alternator is 4 1/2" in diameter and 7" in length and will go right on the original mountings on the tractor. Use an 8" x 3/8" bolt and some pipe and/or washers for spacers. Being Hitachi means that it is METRIC. You will need to drill out the mountings to 3/8". The tension adjusting bolt is also metric thread. The alternator is a three (3) wire set up which can be converted to one (1) wire. There are spade connections labeled S & L and a BAT post connection. The L spade is for the idiot light and can be disregarded. Use a jumper wire from the S spade to the BAT post and you are good to go. The pulley maybe a split type that you can widen using a spacer (once again metric). You may need to use a disc type lock washer and some “Locktite” because there won't be room to reuse the split lock washer that comes with it. I put the washer between to parts of the pulley to make it fit the existing belt. I have installed 4 Hitachi alternators – two were split pulley and the most recent two were not.
There is a built in regulator and a resister to keep the battery from feeding back to the alternator. This is a sweet fit under the hood that he has used on H's, M's and W models, also Cubs and many others. I add the following from my experience:
Be sure to switch the polarity of the battery to Negative ground to avoid damaging the Alternator.
Consequently, you need to switch the wires on the coil, if you are using a coil.
Use a plastic covered connection when you connect the jumper wire from the S spade
On a Farmall M, turning the bracket upside-down will allow the alternator to fit nicely inside the hood using the existing generator belt.
I have installed two Hitachi #14231 alternators on two Ms and two on F-20s without any problems.
I have placed a picture of this instalation under Parts & Pieces in the left-hand column

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JayWalt

01-02-2007 08:11:51




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to F-Dean, 01-02-2007 06:25:58  
I'll keep that in mind. I'm thinking I can use one of my new alternators I have laying around here. Thanks for the pics and explanation.



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teddy52food

01-02-2007 06:22:22




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
The 3rd brush is not fixed. There is a slotted screw on the back side that holds it in position. Loosen this screw and move the brushes farther apart & it will charge less. I have grounded the field and set the brush to charge a steady 10 amps and had no trouble since. Make sure both belts are tight if it does not want to charge.



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JayWalt

01-02-2007 08:07:22




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to teddy52food, 01-02-2007 06:22:22  
The 3rd brush is fixed. T^here is no way to move it at all. I've had the generator completely apart. It is fixed. One of the other poster, has reaffirmed this.
"Jay, I read with some interest your post and the replies. IHC evidently produced several different versions of 6-Volt charging systems, since I have a Super-A with the exact system you describe - a 'fixed' (according to the manuel) 3rd brush generator with a 4-terminal regulator (Arm terminal on the back; F, Bat, and Load terminals on the side) and a 3-position light switch. My regulator (Delco-Remy) was rubber-mounted, so it had an additional ground strap connected from the regulator base to one of the mounting bolts on the tractor (I recently had to 'farmerize' a new mount, since the rubber had disintegrated)."
From Gene-AL

I just looked at my manual, and it IS a fixed 3rd brush generator.

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Brownie450

01-02-2007 04:35:07




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
You don't need a smaller pulley for an alternator. We've been using the original generator pulleys on any conversions over to Delco alternators that we've done with no problems. I'll bet you money that your generator problem lies in the voltage control relay contact in the regulator. This is the coil with many turns of fine wire on it. See if the contacts are free[not welded together]. Have seen these welded together & with a bit of rough finesse, can be gotten apart again. Don' get in a blue funk about your generator. I didn't know anything about generators & regulators either the first time I tackled them. Have patience & let it rest for a day. If I lived closer, I'd come down & help you.

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JayWalt

01-02-2007 07:56:29




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to Brownie450, 01-02-2007 04:35:07  
I've used BobM's troubleshooting guide. From his guide, the regulator is fine. The contacts move fine and the contacts arent burnt up



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Generatorboy

01-01-2007 19:51:40




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
Give up?? there aint such a word!!! smile... It is about 10:00 here now and in the morning I will check to see if I have a generator for you. Get me some numbers off you generator. Another thing where are you located? talk to you later. I think my email is open.



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JayWalt

01-01-2007 17:09:32




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
I'm pretty sure I'm going to just run it without. Good thing I didnt pay for the twistlock belt that's on it =P. I'm sure I'll come acrossed something, seen a universal alternator mount for tractors. My main concern with a 12v conversion is finding a smaller pulley to put on the alternator to make it turn faster so it runs properly. I generally run the tractor at not much more then idle, as I see no need otherwise. I have a brand spanking new alternator, 105amp, lifetime warranty, i stole off my car that got totaled (I miss that car, stupid idiots on the road). It broke the mounting tab, so I returned it with the warranty and got a new one =). Dad said he might have some 12v round lights, so The conversion might be feasible. Bad thing is I dont have a 12v battery to stick in it, but can probly find something or buy a new one for my car since its like 4 years old and throw that one on the tractor. I also got a 12v coil for free, so that is covered.

I'm sure I'll post whatever I do, whenever it happens. I'm going to chill out on the tractor for a bit, pull her outside and trp it for a fw days and replace the real main seal on my car. There's where the real fun is!!

=)

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BDM

01-01-2007 18:10:20




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 17:09:32  
Overdrive V belt pulleys are cheap and easy to come by. Search the NET. Here's a link to summit racing. As an example, they carry many varieties.
Measure your pulley diameter, then decide on what you want.



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BDM

01-01-2007 16:47:20




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
$300 for a generator rebuild?? Jeeeeesh! Cost my bud $100 to rebuild his(from 6v to 12v gen) at Bill's Suburban Alternator just north of Detroit.



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Bob M

01-01-2007 16:45:21




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
JayWalt - a couple thoughts...

1 - Suggest shopping around a bit.....your price of $300 for a generator rebuild is high! (FWIW our local starter/generator charges $100 for a generator rebuild - including a fresh coat of paint...)

2 - If you CAN get the generator to work again without a rebuild, go ahead and run it at 8.2 volts. Just keep a close eye on the battery water level - it'll tend to use a lot. Also you can crudely regulate the charge rate simply by turning on the lights. (With lights on the charging rate to the battery is reduced to only about 5 amps.) ...Bob M

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City-Boy McCoy

01-01-2007 16:15:25




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
Maybe God doesn't want you to have a tractor...?

Take a break from it and let yourself rest for 3-4 days. That's what I do when some project is whipping my "arse".

mike



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El Toro

01-01-2007 15:57:19




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
You may want to use a 6 volt alternator with a builtin regulator. Here's a web site for them. Hal

http://www.alternatorparts.com/6_volt_alternators_&_kits.htm



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Nebraska Cowman

01-01-2007 15:49:49




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 15:45:51  
Oh Jay, don't get your shorts all in a wad. Just run a jumper wire on the field terminal to ground and it will charge like hell. If you think it is getting too much unhook the wire for a while. Quit tyring to make things complicated.



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Jayalt

01-01-2007 16:03:58




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 01-01-2007 15:49:49  
Really? It Will? Seems awefulyl funny, it doesn't. It doesnt now, and it didnt an hour ago. I have went through all the info that people have been kind enough to provide me with. Thanks for your input.

I'm 100% certain the generator is at fault.



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Nebraska Cowman

01-01-2007 16:17:15




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to Jayalt, 01-01-2007 16:03:58  
Oh they can be tempremental, but grounding the fields at least you eliminate the regulator being at fault. The armiture can dirty especialy if the brushes are arcing a little.



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JayWalt

01-01-2007 17:01:06




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 01-01-2007 16:17:15  
I have cleaned the comm, it looks perfect, the brushes are in real good shape, as is the springs.



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Keith-OR

01-01-2007 19:02:41




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 Re: I Give Up in reply to JayWalt, 01-01-2007 17:01:06  
Jay, make sure you are getting good ground on your generator... You have probably already checked this,,,BUT..:>)

Hitachi alternators have a two piece pulley, all you need to do is put spacers between them, this allows the belt to ride in further in the pulley. Which make the alternator spin faster!!!HTH

Keith & Shawn

PS Wish I would've known month ago,I gave away 6 volt gen.w/relay...Looked like new inside. new brushes, comm. had been turned....

Happy New Year

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