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still got wiggle room (I know, here we go again)

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LA in Wi.

02-11-2007 09:06:30




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This steering thing on Farmalls has been cussed and discussed many times on this site, but I need help or advice.

I have Dad's 1950 H fixed up and painted. Most problems (starter, shifter wear, brakes) are taken care of. Tractor had loader on it for 50 yrs so front end was a wobbling mess. I had a retired IH mechanic put in new bushing and bearings in vertical steering post, new u-joint on steering shaft. Large round gear (sector gear?) and worm gear/steering shaft had wiggle room, did not look worn, tried sector gear at many turn settings, still wobbled. I went to IH dealer, found out new worm gear/shaft was about $400, after I got up off floor I bought new, cheaper (foreign made?) worm gear/shaft for $160 hoping that would work. Also tried new sector gear. Tractor still wobbled, but not as bad as before. With sector gear cover off, and me rotating steering rod by hand, I can see small amount of wiggle room remaining between sector and worm. Tractor will still make small wobble at road speeds, but is manageable if I leave one tire deflated to 10-15 psi. Wheels and tires seem to be "round", we put in new bearings also. I'm 70 yrs old, and find tooling down roads in summer checking out crops and birds a pure joy. I just want the darned thing to quit wobbling. My IH mechanic friend thinks that new worm gear was "undercut".
Any ideas to help out a finicky old guy who hates to give up? I've read that putting in shims would help...but where and how?

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Grabatire

02-11-2007 21:44:09




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
This may not sit well with some folks, but my SuperM had the same problem. I installed the wedge and a 360 degree sector gear which helped quite a bit but there was still too much play between the sector gear and the worm gear, so I had a machinist make a concentric bushing for the top of the vertical shaft. It moved the sector gear closer to the worm and "presto" no more wobble. In the end I had approx. 1" of play in the steering wheel. It only moved the shaft over .050" so the stress on the lower bearing of the vertical shaft was extremely small. For what I use the tractor for it will outlast me and then some.

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NDS

02-11-2007 17:48:36




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
Do not know what problem is but I have driven a lot of Hs and Ms with 2 or 3 inches of play in steering wheel that did not shimmy.



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NDS

02-11-2007 17:48:23




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
Do not know what problem is but I have driven a lot of Hs and Ms with 2 or 3 inches of play in steering wheel that did not shimmy.



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Wayne Swenson

02-11-2007 15:58:05




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
If you would swap the dual-wheel front for a single wheel front you will not have the problem!
If you must keep the dual-wheel setup, narrow them up as much as possible and use the tapered wedge.
Good luck.



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GordoSD

02-11-2007 15:50:20




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
Lets think about the dynamics here. The wobble is certainly not starting at the sector/worm gear and traveling down to the wheels. Just the opposite. And wobble has to be set in motion by the tires, then wheels. The rest of the assembly id there to hold everything in status quo. If you had NO gears in there at all the tractor should still, tow, coast without wobble. Of course you couldn't steer it but it shouldn't wobble.By deflating one tire, you are causing a pull to one side, which you are "holding against" with the steering, thereby reducing the wobble, but inducing tension into the system which will wear the gears more. I'd go back down to the wheels and tires, axles, bearings and get that right first.

Gordo

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Glenn F.

02-11-2007 14:05:42




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
LA, what part of Wisconsin?

Glenn (DePere, WI)



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LA in Wi.

02-12-2007 02:21:07




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to Glenn F., 02-11-2007 14:05:42  
Glenn, Reedsburg. About 10 mi from Badger Steam and Gas Show...ever been there?



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Larry-Tx

02-11-2007 11:54:39




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
Put 1 machine washer under wormgear.



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Bill _Utah

02-11-2007 11:52:36




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
La in Wi

I don't know anything about your H, but your response back to Allen is pure poetic.
God Bless you my man.

Bill



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LA in Wi.

02-12-2007 02:34:56




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to Bill _Utah, 02-11-2007 11:52:36  
Bill in Utah, you say poetic? Heck man, I never thought an old tractor could reduce a crusty old guy to a grinning fool every time I fire the ol' gal up. It was sold at Dad's sale in 1980 in Iowa, and I found it in 2003 a rusted heap, never saw a shed in 23 yrs. Many dollars and many hours later, I climb aboard and start to get the shivers before I even hit the starter. Only thing more enjoyable than tooling down a road is pulling my Little Genius in a field...can't wait 'til April!

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no tools

02-11-2007 11:05:58




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
Think you will find you problem is on the end of the worm shaft.That supposed to have a st 225 bearing there soneone has probaly got a narrow race bearing there and the worm shaft is walking <> back and forth in the upper bolster bore.steering worm bearing retainer is not meeting bearing race.been there done that.



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Janicholson

02-11-2007 10:35:28




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
I'm going to make a suggestion that may appear bizarre. First though--- the wheels and tires need to be tested for radial and axial runout, and static balance. Run one tire up on a 4X4 to lift the opposite tire. Place a jack stand near the front raised tire such that a chunk of chalk on a stick can be used to mark the tire for out of true axialy (side to side), and radially, (out of round). Mark the wheel as well. The wheel needs to be within one sixteenth of an inch of true in both directions. It can be shimmed and rebolted to get it true. The tire needs to be just as close to true, and if out of round, or axial runout is bad, may need to be replaced. Balance is done on the axle by rotating the tire and letting it stop naturally. even with a bit of friction, the unit will stop with a heavy side down (mark with chalk each test) and after several samples, a average heavy side will show up. Weights (stick on weights used for mag wheels can be used to balance it till it stops randomly when spun.
Do the same for the other side.
If this fixes it, cool. If it does not, here is the bizarre idea. open the top of the gear box and place a strip of aluminum from a pop can between the worm and sector gears so that it takes up the slack. (do not drive it this way) just check the steering wheel action to see if it is seriously better. If it is, the only solution I can recommend would be machining a larger hole in the worm housing that is offset a few thousandths toward the sector, and making a cylindrical shim that refits the bearings (or use a larger outside diameter bearing) to position the shaft. Good luck with it. JimN

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LA in Wi.

02-12-2007 02:47:10




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to Janicholson, 02-11-2007 10:35:28  
Janicholson, I like that strip of aluminum idea, will try that soon for a test. I feel that if I could move that worm gear closer to the sector it would be the solution. Maybe a good machinist could make me a larger dia. sector?

NoTools, I'll check out your idea, also.

I knew all the advice I'd get on this post was the first place I needed to go for a start. Thanks to all.



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Janicholson

02-12-2007 07:46:36




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-12-2007 02:47:10  
Be careful that less worn areas of the sector (toward the ends left and right) might be tighter than the middle. Feel the looseness (without shims) at full left/right to see if the wear is uniform, or primarily in the middle. JimN



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Georgeky

02-11-2007 09:46:32




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
your wheels are likely mounted on center hubs out of round, making them severely out of balance. Try remounting rims to hub. This is a tricky problem. It will cause severe wobble on the road at high speed. It is the usual cause of wobbleing.



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Steven@AZ

02-11-2007 09:46:32




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
Narrow front? Do you have the wedge casting installed? I have read and heard that the wedge casting helps with wobble problems.

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LA in Wi.

02-12-2007 02:17:28




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to Steven@AZ, 02-11-2007 09:46:32  
Steve, The tractor has that wedge, Dad must have installed that years ago. Thick edge to the rear.



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Steven@AZ

02-12-2007 06:34:07




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-12-2007 02:17:28  
The thick edge should go toward the front, I believe. I think there is "Front" stamped into it with an arrow. You may want to disassemble it to check for sure!

Tilting the wheels back would make the steering return to center automatically, just like the negative caster on a car... I'm not 100% sure, but I think that's how it works.



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Dave S.

02-11-2007 10:55:17




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to Steven@AZ, 02-11-2007 09:46:32  
If nothing else works you might try what Steven suggested in his post. Had a H we put a wedge on and it fixed our wobble problem. Mike at Steel Wheel Ranch (785-548-7437)might have one or Stauffer Salvage(785-966-2739).



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RAW in IA

02-11-2007 09:36:41




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
I have a friend who said once to do like you did, run one front tire a few pounds lower on air than the other.



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Allan In NE

02-11-2007 09:21:06




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:06:30  
I'd jack 'er up and give the thing a shake side to side to re-check those bolster bushings.

Still sounds like that vertical shaft is where the play is.

Allan



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LA in Wi.

02-11-2007 09:36:18




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to Allan In NE, 02-11-2007 09:21:06  
Allen, Thanks for your reply. We jacked it up and did the shake test. That vert. shaft is tight. I can see the "play" between the sector and worm as I stand by the front of the tractor and it drives an old guy nuts in figuring out how to fix that.
That play isn't much (wobble is just enough to shake steering wheel). If it was a work tractor it could be ignored, but this ol' girl and I are retired and she sings to me so soft and pretty and I'm hopelessly in love with her and her pretty red dress.

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Allan In NE

02-11-2007 09:46:38




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to LA in Wi., 02-11-2007 09:36:18  
Oh, heck yes!

It would drive me nuts too! They aren't supposed to shake at all; I don't care what ya use it for. :>)

It's about gotta be in those gears then?

Allan



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SKK - Big Red Fan

02-11-2007 17:44:14




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 Re: still got wiggle room (I know, here we go aga in reply to Allan In NE, 02-11-2007 09:46:38  
Allen, I'll wager that you "wobble & shake" a little more than you did 40 years ago too - carful, your missus will want to shim you up! :)



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