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M vs Super M

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Erwin

08-11-2007 10:00:14

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what are the differences between the two? i found a super m advertised with good paint and good tires and straight tin that has a saginaw 3 point and he is asking twenty six hundred dollars for it. i feel that is a pretty high price. can you fellas offer me some advice please. thank you.

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Erwin

08-11-2007 09:32:32

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Thank you everyone and georgeky, in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

i would sure like to pull up a chair to your supper table and talk tractors while eating liver and onions. good food and good chat. i leared alot today from you guys. i will try to get that serial number and get back to you.

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John S-B

08-12-2007 12:22:28

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Re: Thank you everyone and georgeky, in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 09:32:32

Make it steak and you got a deal. Let us know how it goes if (and when) you pick up that sweet tractor.

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CNKS

08-11-2007 18:43:30

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Re: M vs Super M in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

The only thing for sure is that it is not a stage 2 SM. Does it have a serial tag - M prefix is FBK, Super M prefix SM. I don't believe the Monroe seat was used on late M's or any Super M's, as IH had their own seat by then, even if it was made by an outside supplier. But, the seat could easily have been replaced. Check the letter in the casting code, it is on all major and most other cast parts. If it is lower than X it is not a Super M.

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GordoSD

08-11-2007 18:15:39

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Re: M vs Super M in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

You can buy it for 2600, or go down to the local IH dealer and get a 20 hp Cub Cadet lawn mower for a little more. He's right on the money for a very fair price.Those Goodyear traction Torques are unbeatable, and worth 500 alone. The hitch, 800. SO it;s really only 1300 compared to most other tractors. Go get it!

Gordo

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Erwin

08-11-2007 13:06:59

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Heres a picture in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

here is a picture if i can get it to load. can you tell me if it is an early series by the pic? it reads on the pic its a 1953. i do not know the years the m was produced. i cannot get the guy to answer his phone right now but when i find out more details i will list them. thank you.

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Don L C

08-12-2007 08:41:48

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 13:06:59

Looks like a M to me..... look at the lights.....Don

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John S-B

08-11-2007 18:39:02

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 13:06:59

Erwin, there is no way I'd pay $2600 for that sorry piece of crap! Matter of fact why don't you give me that guy's address and I'll go tell him face to face, not to be trying to take advantage of people. Rest assured I'll really let him have it. I just got to stop by the bank first...

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D Slater

08-11-2007 15:21:07

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 13:06:59

Can't see enough in picture to tell. It could be a M or SM. Gear shift and lights are M or Stage 1 SM. Right front wheel is not from a SM or late M. Can't see gauge box on steering post good enough to tell, but if it has a on off switch and fuse holder side by side between amp gauge and light switch that would be from a stage 2 SM or MTA. If it just has a fuse holder it could be some M or stage 1 SM. A stage 2 SM should of had a battery box with seat on top. Can't see enough to know if live hydraulic pump was added or original, but stage 2 SM with live hydraulics didn't have the bracket from steering post for the hydraulic control rod. Stage 2 without live hydraulics and with belley pump did use it. Without more to go on and the way parts can be switched a serial # from both tractor and engine is needed or some casting numbers or dates. A stage 2 gasoline engine will use a clutch housing with 3 mounting bolts for starter and stage 1 uses 2, only problem is M uses 2 also. If I guessed with what little I can see, M or stage 1 SM.

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City-Boy McCoy

08-11-2007 15:29:09

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to D Slater, 08-11-2007 15:21:07

D.: You did an impressive job analyzing that photo. I learned new facts from reading what you said. Thanks for sharing your knowledge regarding M's, Stage I SM's, Stage II SM's and SM-TA's. I love this forum. mike

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NDS

08-11-2007 13:39:26

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 13:06:59

Not a bad looking old tractor if tires are sound and not weather cracked I see about $1000 from gas tank back and if factory live pump is good it is worth several hundred. Looks like Super M or at least late M gear shift lever.

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georgeky

08-11-2007 13:24:06

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 13:06:59

If it is a Super it is stage one. I looked at the other picture and it has the stage one front bolster which is the same as an M. It also has the belly pump on it. At this point it could be a plain M or stage one Super. Without the serial number it is hard to tell.

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City-Boy McCoy

08-11-2007 13:45:56

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to georgeky, 08-11-2007 13:24:06

George: My stage II super M, F 41198 J, is dated april and may of 1953 (example: 4 25 Y), and it has the stage I front bolster. And, it still has the original paint. The 1953 Stage II super M on the front cover of Red Power Magazine, (July-Aug, 2007) also has the stage I front bolster. And that tractor is also very original according to the cover narrative. I have seen other 1953 Super M's the same way in the photo gallery. mike durhan

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georgeky

08-11-2007 14:13:29

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to City-Boy McCoy, 08-11-2007 13:45:56

Hi Mike, I don't dought that a bit, as they would have used up a lot of those parts on hand before getting into the newer ones. I have also seen a couple with the old bolster on them. His seat is what is throwing a shadow for me. That don't really mean anything either. We need that number to know for sure as to the year of it.

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City-Boy McCoy

08-11-2007 14:36:20

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to georgeky, 08-11-2007 14:13:29

George: That's right. And, that seat (battery location) strongly indicates it is not a stage II. Therefore, like you, I'd guess either stage I SM with a pump added, or a late M with a pump added. My point was, some stage II SM's still have the older style front bolster without the holes and squared off corners. Fun sharing our thoughts, isn't it? mike durhan

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D Slater

08-11-2007 15:31:26

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to City-Boy McCoy, 08-11-2007 14:36:20

Mike you got it, no gasoline SM used a bolster like the SMTA. Except for some early M the M SM gasoline, kerosene, distilite upper bolsters were pretty much the same.

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georgeky

08-11-2007 09:02:22

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to D Slater, 08-11-2007 15:31:26

D Slater. Your reply got me to thinking about that bolster, and I couldn't remember seeing but one stage II with the newer bolster on it. So I went to the neighbors to look at his. It does have the newer bolster on it, but it is a SMD. His SH also has that newer style on it. So I guess by your reply the gassers must not have had it and maybe the diesels did??? Is this right or has his been replaced with one from a 400 or something??

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D Slater

08-11-2007 17:50:30

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to georgeky, 08-11-2007 09:02:22

George, can't say for sure if some of the late SMD used the MTA type bolster or not. Although nothing shows it was used on SMD,its possible some did because IH started selling in 1954 the MTA type bolster 9131-DD as a service or replacement part for 9131-DC and lower suffix use on MD and SMD. Except for outword apearance the MD,SMD,SMTA,SMTAD,400,400D and 450,450D are the same size on the placement of vertical steering shaft and radiator mount placement. Compared to a M or SM gas bolster the diesel M,SM or gas and diesel bolsters on MTA,400,450 put the ratiator and vertical steering shaft around a inch and a half farther away from front of engine or farther forward on tractor than the M or SM gas. Thats why the hoods are longer on MD,SMD and SMTA,SMTAD than M, SM gas and why I don't think a MTA type bolster was ever put on gas SM tractors. If they did the hood,steering worm shaft,radiator shroud and hose connections would of changed to MTA size also and no information shows that. Also the last SM gas made was at TN. redpower round up and it didn't have a MTA type bolster. Some wheel base numbers published are off, but if you look at correct wheelbase lengths and compare the same type fronts (narrow or other) I think you will find MD and SMD shows a wheelbase 1 1/2 inch longer or close than what a M or SM gas shows. MTA up is the same gas or diesel. Lots of people mistakenly think the reason a MTA hood is longer is because of the longer T/A housing but its all because of the front bolster. Rear gas tank mount is shifted forward to make up T/A housing length. If you get a chance look at where the frame rail bolt holes on bolster are located on a MD compared to a M. On a MD the rear 2 bolts will be located in bosses at exstream rear of bolster, on M the bolt holes are farther forward on side of bolster.

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georgeky

08-12-2007 08:05:03

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to D Slater, 08-11-2007 17:50:30

I will drive my M over there one day and have one of those coparison test. The only ones I have with the newer bolster are the 350 and 450. I will check it out though. Thanks.

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georgeky

08-11-2007 15:17:03

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to City-Boy McCoy, 08-11-2007 14:36:20

Mike, I guess that is why they call it a discussion forum. Got to go the wife has my favorite supper on the table. Liver and onions. Yum yum.

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georgeky

08-11-2007 13:18:10

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Re: Heres a picture in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 13:06:59

Yep, that is the one. The plain M was produced from 1939 until 1952. The Super from 52 until 54. That one has the early model seat on it, but that could have been changed. Also looks to be a stage one, which means the hydraulic pump has been added. We need the serial number to know for sure what it is.

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georgeky

08-11-2007 12:24:36

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Re: M vs Super M in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

If it is the one I seen on another forum it does have live hydraulics and the Farmall two way valve. The guy says he has over 3000 in it now, and that is very possible. It isd not hard to get 4 or 5000 in one. That hitch and live hydraulics make it woth the money in my opinion.

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NDS

08-11-2007 12:01:18

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Re: M vs Super M in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

Do not have a clue about what it is worth but I have a M that came free several years ago and had no major problems and I still have over $2000 in it . New tires, carb overhaul kit, dist. overhaul, wiring, battery box, seat pan, bushings and spring, muffler, sediment bowl and the list goes on. So if SM does not need anything in may be cheap.

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Ole Sow 53

08-11-2007 11:33:45

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Re: M vs Super M in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

If the serial number starts with a L it is a Louisville Super M and it would add a few hundred to it's value.

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City-Boy McCoy

08-11-2007 10:30:02

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Re: M vs Super M in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

The saginaw alone is $675 + freight, say $800. A new set of tires for an M/SM is going to be around $1,000 mounted. A super m stage 1 will usually bring $200-$300 more than a regular m; a stage II sm will often bring $500 to $700 more than an m. If you do the math and figure a decent m with good tin and paint is going to be $1700, that super m you found does not sound too bad to me. mike durhan

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georgeky

08-11-2007 10:25:14

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Re: M vs Super M in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

It sounds a little high to me as well. You need to consider the over all condition of it though. If it has a good engine and good tires everything works as it should and needs nothing it may not be so bad. The M has a 248 CI engine,band brake, and a transmission driven hydraulic pump in most cases. The Super M will have a 264 CI engine and disc brakes. May also have live engine mounted hydraulic pump depending on the year. Both are very good work horses.

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44 massey

08-11-2007 10:13:58

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Re: M vs Super M in reply to Erwin, 08-11-2007 10:00:14

Depends are your location as they are worth more in some areas then others. Just 1 yr ago I sold an M that I put new sleeves and pistons valve job and brgs, had good rubber and new paint wide front but NO 3pt for $2500 here in Nebr!! Being a super M and with 3pt dont really think that is too bad a deal especially if it has wide front. Need distinguishes value!!

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