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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Magneto and distributor ignition systems

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Author 
mark

09-29-2007 09:27:58




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Unless I have my wires crossed (pun intended!) IH was producing both types of ignition systems at the same time. Why?

Why would anybody want a magneto as opposed to a distributor? Obviously the distributor eclipsed the mag system....but did any advantage exist with a magneto...either real or imagined?




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Mike CA

09-29-2007 12:43:53




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to mark, 09-29-2007 09:27:58  
One comment not made was the "cool" factor in a Magneto. Mags are an old technology, and modern equipment doesn't use them. So I'm switching my tractor back to a mag when I can. I'm preserving the heritage of this tractor. So fuel economy and hotter sparks make no difference to me. I'm more interested in the by-gone era.



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El Toro

09-29-2007 14:27:17




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to Mike CA, 09-29-2007 12:43:53  
Don't get too far back in time or you will be looking at the south end of a team of mules heading north. Hal



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Bob M

09-29-2007 12:30:06




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to mark, 09-29-2007 09:27:58  
Another advantage is a coil/distributor costs a bit less to manufacture than does a magneto. Thus one rarely sees a magneto on a tractor factory equipped with a battery and generator.

Further expanding on John T's timing comment, a distributor's ability to vary spark timing with RPM results in a smoother running engine over a wider RPM range - and probably also slightly better fuel economy.



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John T

09-29-2007 10:27:46




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to mark, 09-29-2007 09:27:58  
The Mag doesnt require battery voltage to work for one thing, but when they replaced hand start with electric start tractors the mags started to loose out for battery powered coil ignition systems whuch generally speaking develop more energy for a hotter spark. Another major advantage of a distributor is it can have a variable RPM based spark advance curve versus a mag which bacically has only a start/impulse timing and then a fixed run time advance with no in between and no variable versus RPM timing like the distributor. The mags also have all that spring wind n trip and impulse mechanism to wear n go bad which the distributors dont have to worry about.

John T

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ScottyHOMEy

09-29-2007 09:52:49




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to mark, 09-29-2007 09:27:58  
About the only advantage I've come up with is that you could throw a belt or burn up a battery, and the mag would keep you running.

Some folks calm the mags were more reliable, but they actually have more moving parts than the battery distributor when you figure in the impulse coupler. Both had points and condensors to go bad.



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Dave H (MI)

09-29-2007 10:54:51




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 09-29-2007 09:52:49  
Now that is interesting! I was at a tractor show a couple of weeks back and we could not figure out why there were so many tractors without batteries. I just figured they had one battery they swapped around but was a little bothered by the absence of someplace to put it. So those tractors were crank start and the magneto generates the spark once running? Learn something every day around here!

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Nebraska Cowman

09-29-2007 11:08:20




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-29-2007 10:54:51  
Yes Dave. A magneto makes it's own spark. No battery needed.



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Dave H (MI)

09-29-2007 16:35:30




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 09-29-2007 11:08:20  
Hate to make myself sound dumb, but what about tractors that have generators? Is that a component of a magneto system or something entirely different?



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ScottyHOMEy

09-29-2007 17:08:01




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-29-2007 16:35:30  
Nope. THe mag is completely independent of the battery and generator. Those mag tractors with generators had them to charge a battery for starting and lights.

Amazing ain't it that the same thing that makes the spark to light your grill can run an engine. But gazillions of lawn moers still have them.



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Dave H (MI)

09-29-2007 18:51:56




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 09-29-2007 17:08:01  
Oh, I get it!!! The tractors that start on cranks and have no lights will be magneto systems and the tractors with batteries AND a magneto use the battery for starting and possibly to run lights and have a generator instead of an alternator. Well, I though I got it but I'm just not so sure anymore! Don't you guys worry about it...I'll figure it out on my next two projects when I get to them and ask you then.

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csmeyers

09-30-2007 07:57:10




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-29-2007 18:51:56  

Dave H (MI) said: (quoted from post at 18:51:56 09/29/07) Oh, I get it!!! The tractors that start on cranks and have no lights will be magneto systems and the tractors with batteries AND a magneto use the battery for starting and possibly to run lights and have a generator instead of an alternator. Well, I though I got it but I'm just not so sure anymore! Don't you guys worry about it...I'll figure it out on my next two projects when I get to them and ask you then.


During the time of the older tractors Alternators were not around, so this is the reason for a Generator. Most cars did not receive Alternators until the very late 60's and earily 70's. Generators won't start charging until about 1000 rpm while an alternator will charge at about 500-800+ RPM's. While I am far form an expert on Farmall Tractors I would bet that most of them all came with a generator and not alternators. I have a 47 A with lights, electric start, Mag, and it's generator doses not come on-line until about 1000 RPM.
hope this helps,

Corey

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ScottyHOMEy

09-29-2007 21:11:03




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-29-2007 18:51:56  
There were four systems, Dave.

1) The basic. A magneto and a crank. No generator, no lights, no battery.

2) Option 1. A magneto and a crank for the engine. For lights, Bosch made a system with a generator to to run lights, but no battery so the lights would only burn while the engine was running. Never saw one with it, but I'd expect the lights went up and down to some degree with engine speed, like on a car with a bad battery running off the alternator.

3a) Generator, battery, starter (crank cleverly concealed as a backup), lights and magneto. Battery was to turn the starter and level the current to the lights They (the lights) ran off the battery, not off the genny as in the Bosch system, and as long as everything wa in good order, wouldn't flicker or flare and dim as much. Engine ignition was still from the mag and completely isolated from the battery and charging system.

3b) Generator, battery, starter (still a backup crank) lights and battery/coil ignition. Difference from 3a is that the ignition is now a part of and therefore dependent on the same electrical sysem that runs everything else.

I may be a little screwed up on the particulars of this, but I my understanding of the concept is that the coil in a battery ignition is actually two coils, one inside the other. They are wound at sufficiently different rates that they are magnetically/electrically different. It is the difference, when released (think back to our discussion of how the charge dumps when your points open) that makes the spark that winds up at the spark plug. If the inside of the two coils were on a spindle, you'd have a motor that would transfer/release the energy by turning the spindle instead of releasing a spark.

A magneto works similarly, except that instead of two coils, it has a permanent magnet in place of the outside coil, and the turning of the magneto excites a smaller coil inside the magnet. Same effect except the magnetism comes from the permanent magnet rather than a magnetic field created by the outer coil on the battery system. Where I'm off base, I'll happily be corrected and grateful for the learning experience.

I learned some, too, on this whole thread. I hadn't given any thought to the potential for a stronger spark possible with the voltage/amperage off a battery vs. the mag. Nor to the improved spark timing from the centrifugal advance on the battery distributor. I'm actually kind of curious now whether the function of the impulse coupler prohibits a better spark advance system on the mag, or if the engineers just moved on to something better.

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Dave H (MI)

09-30-2007 11:42:58




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to ScottyHOMEy, 09-29-2007 21:11:03  
Those are keepers for the archives! Thanks for the explanations I really had no idea there were that many options. I have a feeling that info will come in handy down the road.



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Steven f/AZ

09-30-2007 14:06:52




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 Re: Magneto and distributor ignition systems in reply to Dave H (MI), 09-30-2007 11:42:58  

Dave H (MI) said: (quoted from post at 11:42:58 09/30/07) Those are keepers for the archives! Thanks for the explanations I really had no idea there were that many options. I have a feeling that info will come in handy down the road.


Buy some of Guy Fay's books and you will educate yourself in a hurry... Ken Updike has a couple of really good books for the 60's and up tractors, too.

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