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rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine

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sco656

10-24-2007 17:48:56




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Hi, I am looking for some experienced info for my maiden voyage into engine rebuilding. I had one cylinder in my tractor that progressively fouled the sparked plug from every 12 hours down to every three hours. Then I lost intake on this cylinder. As you probably know a 5 cylinder 656 is pretty much worthless. I have just taken the head off the tractor and found a small chip off the edge of the intake valve. So I know I have one cylinder with a oil control problem and a bad valve. From here where do I go? Do I just order the in frame piston and sleeve kit and the valve kit or go with the everything kit and remove the engine. If I do the in frame rebuild how do I get the sleeves out and new ones in? Which way do I manually turn the crank to get access to all the rod caps? Anything else someone might add would be appreciated. By the way what is a good manual for information on proper torquing, break-in etc? Thanks for any help Scott

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old timer

10-25-2007 01:05:06




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to sco656, 10-24-2007 17:48:56  
may i ask why it is so important to use such a high octane gasoline thanks



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the tractor vet

10-25-2007 07:09:37




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to old timer, 10-25-2007 01:05:06  
Because , first off it is a high compression engine and needs it . If ya run plain old 87 it burns in a flash burn and hotter and will super heat the piston and cause it to swell more then the clearance between the wall of the sleeve and the top of the piston has and this will cause a seizure of the piston and sleeve . Also ya can not bump the timing up on these engines even on the 93 octain . Like i have said over and over again the gas of today is not the gas of the day where these tractors were built . The gas of today burns alot hotter for emissions reduction . THen ya take into account that the pistons ya buy today are not forged pistons but cheep cast pistons and can not transfer heat to the skirts and to the walls like a forged piston can . Now if all ya do is just drive it around the yard and never work it it may last on 87 but you put it to work and you will eat a couple pistons or at least score the cylinder walls . How do i know all this well it was lest just say a couple COSTLY LESIONS and a trip to a independent chemist and big money spent . Back when the new line of 4-6 cylinder gassers came out Reg. pump gas was 95 octain for reg and the cheep junk gas that even and old 6 cylinder Chebby would not run on was 92-93 . When we would do one of our upgrades on a S/M - S/MTA's ya had to move up to the 93 . While i was farmen back in the 80's everything i had was a gasser and my old wore out 706 that was so bad that nobody would buy ran supe good on the hightest but tryen to be cheep on the Massey 300 combine with the 225 slant 6 would run real hot on 87 but it ran , another pice that i could not get sold . I farmed with junk well that is what everybody thought but i was farmen and the funny thing is that i got the same price for the crop as everybody else did . . The massey is the one that had me stumped till one day . I was headed to a sale out in Ind. and when i stopped for gas in the truck the price was 40 cents less out there then at home and it was time to start shellen corn and i was going to need around 200 gallon of gas to feed the massey with all the custom work and my owen shellen , hey thats 80 bucks that can stay in my pocket . They always had fuel tanks at the sale some with pumps and some with out also in Ind. they had FARM GAS back then it still had lead in it and was around 92 octain . So why not buy a couple fuel tanks and fill them with farm gas for less money then i would have to pay around here . So i did i bought three pick up style 110 gallon tanks one with a pump and two with out . on the way home i stopped at Mount Comfort and filled all of them . That weekend i put the old massey to work on 76 acres of custom work and that is when i discovered that OH wait a min she is running a whole bunch cooler and she has never ran this cool like about 40 degrees cooler ya cold feel the difference since ya sat next to the engine . Now why is it running cooler i have done nothing But put the gas in it . Then later on after working on several 6 cylinder gasser around here for scored sleeves and one engine failure and studing what happened there it all came down to the gas that is when we took the gas to the Lab for testing and also at the same time i got my hands on a operating manual as to the for a 706 gasser and sat down and read it , and in the FUEL req. it tells ya in black and white that the MIN. is 93 octain . Also the ing. timing is of the most importance on these engines and must be set dead on the money OR ya will have a melt down. . You will never hear the pinging till it is to late and if she pulls down and quiets she is done for , oh she will restart in 15 -20 min . but the damage is done and will need to be rebuilt .. Now ya stop and thing about all this and just how many times has this engine been rebuilt and how many times has this head been milled down and everytime ya peal 7-10 thousants off the comp ratio goes even higher and adds to the problem.

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the tractor vet

10-24-2007 20:37:51




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to sco656, 10-24-2007 17:48:56  
First off are you sure that it is and intake ?? bet it is and exhaust valve that went to lunch from improper oil . Next before ya order a engine kit best look at the deck of the block near each hole for letters stamped in the deck the letters ya find will tell ya what bore class ya have like A-B will take over the counter sleeves and fit ok IF ya find C-or D then ya need oversize sleeves and ya don't find them over the counter . If i was doing this engine there is noway i would do and inchassie . That engine would come all the way down and EVERYTHING would be checked line bore block deck counter bores cam lifters rods then on the head it would get new guides checked for warpage and the springs would all be tested . Then the sleeves would be pressed in and honed after they were in . also i would make sure that before the sleeves went in that the counter bores were all depth checked and the lips on the slleves checked to make sure that they have the correct stand out hight as ones they are in it is TO LATE . Then each piston would be fitted to each hole as they are not perfect and vary in size . And ya want .004 skirt to wall clearance on each hole . Now if ya don't know how to do this then save yourself time and money and let someone that realy knows what he is doing do the job for ya as far as doing the bottom end Then you can put the block back in the tractor and put the head on . Now weather ya know this or not ya have to run low ash oil in that engine and YOU MUST RUN 93 octain gas no if ans or buts about this. Also ya may want to have the rocker arms reground as they all have a wear pattern where they meet the valve stem .

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sco656

10-25-2007 14:35:34




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to the tractor vet, 10-24-2007 20:37:51  
Thanks for the great reply - I guess I have a big decision to make. I just went out to look at the deck of the block and found the following letters in order from the radiator back; D A A E C C. So what the heck does that mean? I measured the sleeve openings and they are about 3& 9/16 across. The info about the oil and octane was very interesting. I had always used good oil but not low ash. I have been adding to the oil and the gas Marvell's Mystery Oil. I started doing this because I read that if I had soft valve seats they were not getting lubrication because of a absence of lead in the gasoline. It was recommended to add the MMO to help lubricate the valve seats. I double checked the bad valve and it does have a small chip broken off the corner about the size of a finger nail off of your index finger. I am saying this is the bad intake valve based on my presumption that the intake valve is smaller than the exhaust valve. I have made arrangements for the head to be taken to a machine shop to be fixed. Will the new valve seats that they order be hardened so as not to be affected by no lead fuel?

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the tractor vet

10-25-2007 16:10:00




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to sco656, 10-25-2007 14:35:34  
Well iam betting that that E is really an B as they never used a E class bore . SOOoo ya need three std. bore sleeves and three oversized sleeves . All I H gassers have harden seat and stelite valves . Adding SNAKE OIL really does nothing . The use of a non low ash oil is what causes the exhaust valves to torch . ANd the use of Hightest gas is required for working the tractor as it burns cooler and longer . giving better power and lower heat on the top of the pistons . Trust me here as i have worked on a lot of the gassers and we still run two 706 gassers . Now here is some food for thought , To get away from two different size sleeves You may want to think about maybe maken her a 291 . This can be done by having a GOOD machine shop bore the block and getting the sleeve and piston set that is made to take a C263 out to a 291 . Now there are a couple things that will need changing along with this set up , one is getting the Dist recurved to the timing spec.'s of a late 291 engine and myself i like to rework the carb by reaming out the main jet .001 , for this i had a local drill bit mfg. co. make me up a ream for this . AND that is all that needs to be done and ya fallow the skirt to wall clearence that i posted before and run the Low Ash oil and the 93 octain gas and break that engine in for 35 -40 hours with light to med loads and it will give ya years of service .

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sco656

10-25-2007 18:08:16




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to the tractor vet, 10-25-2007 16:10:00  
Thanks for the quick reply and more interesting info. I just ran back out to the garage to recheck the stamping on the one bore and it is definitely stamped with an E. If I might ask, what are the advantages with upgrading to the 291 other than having uniformity in sleeve size? Do I get more horse power and or fuel economy? To reset the timing would I have to pull the distributer and reset it or can I just loosen it and adjust? For the carburetor, do I ream the main jet out .001 more than what it already is or do I ream it to a total of .001? Could I ask what your opinion is on the worth of putting this kind of money into a gas engine tractor. Many of the neighbor farmers have ridiculed me for farming with this tractor. Now they think I am really crazy for fixing it. If I have heard it once I have heard it a thousand times, "Why do you want to farm with a gasoline tractor when you could go with a diesel and get cheaper fuel cost, 30% more efficiency and longer engine life". Thanks again for the wealth of info, Scott

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the tractor vet

10-25-2007 20:37:19




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to sco656, 10-25-2007 18:08:16  
Well by going to a 291 you will gain Hp. around 10- 15 pony's As for the dist and the timing that needs to be done on a dist. strob machine as the advance curve needs to be changed to limit the total advance . Then when ya set the timing ya try and keep the TDC set for easy starting and then the advance curve is limited to a total of no more then 19 degrees at rated RPM. . Are you Crazy for fixen this tractor , Well that all depends on what you think it is worth are you crazy for farmen with a gas tractor I don't know how much you are tryen to farm or your operation . Like i said around here we have a ton of gas powered tractors that still go out and do a long days work . My two good buddys - friends both have 706 gassers that i sold them many years ago . When the cold weather sets in the diesels get put away and we use the gassers for the chore work as they will start in just about any weather above -40 below have faster warm up don't have to worry about plugen them in . They have the Hp. to run the grinder mixer and do the feeding . And yes they do use gas when working . The one 706 use to do all the heavy work till i sold my buddy a 1066 . Now the 706 would go out all day plowing pulling a set of 540 4x16 semi mount plows going down 8-10 inches deep and in a long day she would suck up 35-40 gallon of gas . Put the 1066 in the same fields with a set of 710 5x16's and cover the same ground a bit faster BUT suck up 45-55 gallon of diesel. When the 706 needs a rebuild i can run thru that engine for under a grand but when the 1066 takes the big dump we are looken at around three grand . as it will be and out of chasie and the pump and injectors wil get changed and we will up grade that engine to the B seires along with a new turbo . Now mabe down the road you may want to get a diesel and move the 656 back to a chore tractor . Look at it this way even if ya do rebuild upgrade the 656 it is paid for So ok you rebuild the engine put a new clutch in paint the tractor put new tire on it a new seat even a new hyd. pump and a new T/A ya have a new old tractor and if you are the one happy with it that is all that matters. Do it once and do it wright and don't worry about it. Look around and find some old fart that knows what he is doing and a machine shop that knows how things are done wright the first time . Ask around talk to people in your area . If you were close i would help ya and show you how it is done and tell ya why . .

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sco656

10-27-2007 17:29:04




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to the tractor vet, 10-25-2007 20:37:19  
Sir Tractor Vet,
Sorry I didn"t get back to you sooner, my computer had a breakdown. I have a couple of questions. I contacted two machine shops today to get estimates and information. Both shops were unable to obtain any info on parts availability for the C263 to C291 sleeve and piston set. Do you know of a source for this kit? Is the dist. strobe machine something the machine shop will have or will I need to get another person or shop to access this? I am guessing you meant to ream the main jet out .001 larger than it is now? My thought is what you said, that I would use this as the winter tractor and in the summer for raking hay and misc. I had the clutch and torque done on the tractor about 800 hours ago so I am half way to an old new tractor. Thanks for the offer of coming by, the info has been more than generous. When I get this done there will be a 656 running around in Pennsylvania with your name on it. Thanks, Scott

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the tractor vet

10-27-2007 20:25:46




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to sco656, 10-27-2007 17:29:04  
Must be something going around as my puter is actig up here also Now as for the change over ya can get the sleeves from Case I H but they want tomuch . Give Howards enterprises in Lymm Ind. a call and explain to them that you want to do a C263 to 291 change and need the sleeves with the wide flang for this As they can get them for half the price as Case I H . As to the Dist Sometimes a GOOD old machine shop that plays around with racing may have a old Sun or Allied strob layen around and maybe some OLD FART that knows how to use it that can trim the curve . He would have to get the spec.;s for the 291 dist as a 263 runs a few more degrees advance and a 291 don"t like that setting. By the way Howards has all the engine parts that you will need . As for me i deal with a Jobber shop and get the same stuff just a bit cheaper . I did a real dumb thing 4 years ago i threw away all my parts books or i could look up the #"s either in Clevite or Seal power. Ya just have to know HOW TO USE THE BOOKS .

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ih560

10-24-2007 22:45:10




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to the tractor vet, 10-24-2007 20:37:51  

the tractor vet said: (quoted from post at 20:37:51 10/24/07) First off are you sure that it is and intake ?? bet it is and exhaust valve that went to lunch from improper oil . Next before ya order a engine kit best look at the deck of the block near each hole for letters stamped in the deck the letters ya find will tell ya what bore class ya have like A-B will take over the counter sleeves and fit ok IF ya find C-or D then ya need oversize sleeves and ya don't find them over the counter . If i was doing this engine there is noway i would do and inchassie . That engine would come all the way down and EVERYTHING would be checked line bore block deck counter bores cam lifters rods then on the head it would get new guides checked for warpage and the springs would all be tested . Then the sleeves would be pressed in and honed after they were in . also i would make sure that before the sleeves went in that the counter bores were all depth checked and the lips on the slleves checked to make sure that they have the correct stand out hight as ones they are in it is TO LATE . Then each piston would be fitted to each hole as they are not perfect and vary in size . And ya want .004 skirt to wall clearance on each hole . Now if ya don't know how to do this then save yourself time and money and let someone that realy knows what he is doing do the job for ya as far as doing the bottom end Then you can put the block back in the tractor and put the head on . Now weather ya know this or not ya have to run low ash oil in that engine and YOU MUST RUN 93 octain gas no if ans or buts about this. Also ya may want to have the rocker arms reground as they all have a wear pattern where they meet the valve stem .


Sounds to me like it is just time for a new tractor. Just joking, but really if you are just starting in on this, there is no way I would recommend for you to do a complete overhaul yourself. An Inframe overhaul is better than what you have now, and it will probably be fine for you. If you try to do a complete overhaul of the engine like TRAKTER Vet says, then you are going to have to have a lot more tools than the average starting mechanic has. And inframe is much easier because you don't have to worry about splitting the tractor, removing the engine from the frame and having some way to move all of that.
You can take all the rod caps loose by rotating the crank until you can get to each one of them and remove them as you go from the top of the block. If you can get a sleeve puller or borrow one then you can pull those from the top a lot easier too. You can probably take the head to a machine shop and get new valves seated and sealed for a reasonable price.
The new sleeves will go in better if you leave them in the freezer overnight first. and the easiest was to turn the engine is by being very careful and either using a prybar on the ring ( after starter is removed) or using the starter to turn it, BUT I would recommend the prybar. It is just more controlled and a lot safer.

You seem like you are just wanting to learn some things on your own and get some experience starting out on this kind of thing. OR YOU COULD take about $$2000 +++ to an engine rebuilder and have everything done that tractor vet said.
Just get a repair manual ( A GOOD ONE ) and read into everything a little before tearing into it right away. Some people jump the gun on some things and break more than they fix if they go in blindly.

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sco656

10-25-2007 15:16:40




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to ih560, 10-24-2007 22:45:10  
Yes you are right, I was going into this project alone for two reasons, one to learn something and two because I could not get anyone local that I know that has mechanical ability to come give me some guidance. I was in the mindset to do this project in frame. After reading Tractor Vet's reply I will have to think about which way to go with the engine. In your opinion what do I need to look for (Engine wear wise) to determine if I should have the engine completely redone like Tractor Vet recommends versus just having the head serviced and a sleeve and piston kit put in? I have put about 1500 hours on it since I bought it. When I purchased it the tach only read 976 hours (I knew this was not actual)- I did not know if maybe someone had done some service to the engine and reset the tach or what. So back to the fork in the road - I am guessing there are bearings and seals on both ends of the crank and cam. Are these going to go out 500 hours after just putting the in frame kit in it? More questions to make sure I have another sleepless night. By the way, looking up from under the tractor the crankcase is perfectly painted IH red. Is this an indication that a complete overhaul has been done at sometime? Thanks for any info, Scott

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the tractor vet

10-25-2007 07:21:43




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 Re: rebuilding 656 with gasoline c263 engine in reply to ih560, 10-24-2007 22:45:10  
Yea ya may have two grand in it doing it wright the first time but it is better to do it wright the first time then doing it over again or having a sleeve get sucked down around the crank because it did not fit correctly These are not the 350 chebbys . As for pulling the engine a cheep cherry picker and a couple 6ton jack stands and a 200 dollar tool set from sears plus a half decent torque wrench will get the job done. And buying tools is what guys like to do . and a 25 dollar I T manual is all that ya need Oh and a decent puller. So it is like this do you want to do it twice or once .

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