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93 octane?

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ggg7lazy77

10-28-2007 22:48:44

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I have a 706 that I got recently & from all the research on the board, it is recommended that I use 93 octane so I don't burn valves. The problem is, that I can ONLY find 91 octane! Believe it or not, but we even have a refinery not too far away! Is this going to be a problem or do I just expect to burn valves & deal with it?

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JSharp

10-30-2007 07:11:46

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

The IH manual for my 404 says - This engine is designed to operate on gasoline with a 93 minimum Octane rating ( Research Method ).

The key being "Research Method". The Research Method octane rating is not what you see on the pump these days. What you see on the pump is a combination of Research and Motor octane ratings and will be 4 or 5 points lower than the numbers shown using just the Research Method.

IOW, 89 as shown on the pump these days will be about 93-94 Research Method octane. It makes sense that these 70's and older engines would run on current 89 octane rating fuel given their low compression and low rpm operation.

Some links about fuel octane that include more links -

Link

http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa070401a_2.htm

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dhermesc

10-30-2007 07:57:01

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to JSharp, 10-30-2007 07:11:46

JSharp said: (quoted from post at 07:11:46 10/30/07) The IH manual for my 404 says - This engine is designed to operate on gasoline with a 93 minimum Octane rating ( Research Method ).

The key being "Research Method". The Research Method octane rating is not what you see on the pump these days. What you see on the pump is a combination of Research and Motor octane ratings and will be 4 or 5 points lower than the numbers shown using just the Research Method.

IOW, 89 as shown on the pump these days will be about 93-94 Research Method octane. It makes sense that these 70's and older engines would run on current 89 octane rating fuel given their low compression and low rpm operation.

Some links about fuel octane that include more links -

Link

Link

Good thing someone is reading their manual and doing their research.
Thanks for clearing up the misinformation being tossed around here.

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sammy the RED

10-29-2007 22:43:22

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

[quote:25e8e7bd17]"Mike CA"

Where can you find low ash 30 weight? I've never heard of low ask oil before.[/quote:25e8e7bd17]

At your local Case/IH dealer or use Pennzoil. third party image

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jpl

10-29-2007 19:00:24

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

after reading this article, i found my original owners manuel for my 560 gasser, 1958 model. it says to use90 minimun octane and sae-20 or sae10w-30 according to temp. now years later after lots of hard work and hours, it has been upgraded to a 291 and the 706 head with smaller comb chamber, dont know what comp ratio is, but i use 93 octane and havent had any trouble, main thing is get the timing set just right. holds 9 qts oil, and my manuel said if temp below-10 to use 8 gts sae 10wt with 1qt of kerosene. i never did that thro. always used oil (for service ms)

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Mike CA

10-29-2007 15:20:59

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

F-Dean said: We used "Tractor Fuel" which I believe is also called "Distillate." The older tractor rewuired you to start on gasolene to warm the engine before swithing to the lower octane fuel. Anyone know its octane rating?

If I remember what I was told correctly, Distillate was about 36 octane.

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F-Dean

10-29-2007 13:41:11

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

We used "Tractor Fuel" which I believe is also called "Distillate." The older tractor rewuired you to start on gasolene to warm the engine before swithing to the lower octane fuel. Anyone know its octane rating?

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dhermesc

10-29-2007 11:19:15

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

Run a quality 30W oil and 87 octane.

Unless you've got the timing screwed up the engine will be fine - and high octane won't help you much if you don't have the engine set up right. Putting high octane in a low compression engine is a fine way to waste money. Got a gas 656 with over 20,000 hours to prove it.

As for IH low ash oil, everyone has an opinion on motor oil. In the end the low bidder fills the IH oil jug. The important thing is to keep it changed and the filters fresh.

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dhermesc

10-29-2007 12:00:09

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to dhermesc, 10-29-2007 11:19:15

One other thing to remember, IH low ash multi grade oil runs .9

http://www.viscosityoil.com/pdf/P1_12.PDF Other "name brand" motor oils actually have less sulphate ash like Castrol GTX(.8) and Exxon Super Flow (.7). Some have the same like Pennzoil and Quaker State(.9) while Havoline, Shell and a few others have more. Its only when you go with a straight grade (like SAE30W) that you have a true "low ash" oil with IH brands. Link

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ggg7lazy77

10-29-2007 10:24:59

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

Just FYI: I have also seen all the recommendations on Low Ash oil & the first thing I did when I got the tractor was a fresh oil change & put in Low Ash oil.

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Thack

10-29-2007 09:37:00

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

I would like to point out a few things ref Tractor Vet"s comments. By chance (U.S. Nationals) I came into contact with a former IHC employee, as we talked about Farmalls I brought up this gas and low ash oil thing. Well it turns out this was no little issue, it was a very, very big deal at IHC.

Long story short TV is right in line with the solution reached by IHC.

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Mike CA

10-29-2007 09:24:37

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

I need to fly you out to California to get my H set up right. :lol:

Where can you find low ash 30 weight? I've never heard of low ask oil before.

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Nat 2

10-29-2007 10:22:21

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to Mike CA, 10-29-2007 09:24:37

You get it at your friendly neighborhood CaseIH dealer. It says "LOW ASH" in big white letters on the bucket.

As an aside: Vet, is it me or is your typing getting WORSE as time goes by? I seem to remember a time where you actually used paragraphs, sentence structure, and spelling. I was impressed with both your tractor knowledge and your literary skill as I recall. Now it's devolved to the point where even a seasoned teenager would have problems translating.

Don't take this the wrong way. You go ahead and post however you want. I'm not complaining, just making an observation. Just keep this in mind: A well-written piece of bad advice is far more likely to be followed than the best advice in "old-man-ized" chatspeak.

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Lanse-not quite

10-29-2007 16:27:13

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to Nat 2, 10-29-2007 10:22:21

Naaa, I can read it :--)

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the tractor vet

10-29-2007 10:45:45

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to Nat 2, 10-29-2007 10:22:21

Yea , i guess that i would never make it as a good reporter and i know my spelling skills lack . But if ya want to grade me on that So be it . Ya want to know how to fix your tractor or ya more worried about my placing my comma's and periods .

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Nat 2

10-29-2007 12:03:26

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to the tractor vet, 10-29-2007 10:45:45

Now that's the tractor vet I remember! third party image

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Mike CA

10-29-2007 08:39:08

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

Good read, TV. I don't think it applies to my needs, so I'll ask you this. I have a '44 H that won't be doing any hard work. I'd like it to run well so I don't have any headaches, but it's just going to be a toy. I've been told that running the low octane was fine. And 15w-40 was recommended for the oil because of zinc, which was good for the valves of these older engines.
So, for my application, would you say a high grade of fuel is needed, or would be beneficial, or would I just be wasting money?

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the tractor vet

10-29-2007 09:18:34

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to Mike CA, 10-29-2007 08:39:08

Well , as for the gas ya ya can get away with pump gas BUT ya may have some plug fouling from lack of use. As for the oil hey it's your engine if it was mine it would get the low ash in the 30 weight as diesel oild is just that and yea i know someone will say well i have been using that for years and i have had no problems . It is like this Guys and yes i m getting OLD a nd real GRUMMPY , Only once have i ever had to ask a question on something that i could not find and that was a pulley for the chopper . Ya never see me asken WHY IS my tractor doing this or that . AND JUST HOW MANY OF YOU HAVE EVER taken a given tractor and put it on a DYNO and tryed different fuels or setting to see just to see if ya can get a bit more out of one OR gone sofar to see just where the pin falls out of the hand gernade and watch it make spare pice's and parts. I know for a fact that on my owen S/MTA that i can GAIN 1.5 HP with M&W flat tops stock head and carb with the updated curve kit in the dist over reg. gas or 87 verses 93 Yea not much but and increase never less reduce operating temp. by 15-20 degrees on the water temp . on heavy loads . Maybe i watch more closely to thing then others do ??? Most people never thing about things like gas . BUT making engines run to there best has always been my thing. From my days of drag racen trucking and on into the tractors . Just HOW MUCH more can i tweek out of this engine and what will the long term affects be on it . To me when i do a TUNE UP it is more then just throwen in a set of plugs and points , is the carb set wright is the gov. working like it should and is it scyn. to the carb will this thing idle where is is suppose to is it getting full throttle and full RPM is the timing doing what it is suppose to do when it is suppose to do it ?? are the valves dead on , Just how may of all you shade tree mechaninac able to do a recurve on a dist or rely able to rebuild a carb or make the changes to one to get a few more ponys . How many can do all the work on and engine including the machine work . Well folks i can and have been able to do all this for more years then i care to think about . What i should have done a long time ago is set a web site and been like a Dr. if ya want the correct answer then give my your VISA or Master card # and i E/Mail ya . When it comes to the Letter seires thru the 86 seires i have already been there and done that before that Plum don't know and after that plum don't know . Do i know other color tractors not really have i worked on them yes am i and expert on the other colors NO I chose to work on one color and be darn good at it . Do i know Chebby's No do i know FORD and MO PAR's yes the GOOD OLD ONES. What i am good at i am vary good at.

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ggg7lazy77

10-29-2007 10:34:09

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to the tractor vet, 10-29-2007 09:18:34

I don't know much about the internal workings/mechanics on tractors, but over the years while looking for information on this website I have learned that "tractor vet" is one of the few on here that knows what they are talking about & I always hope he responds to my posts so I can get RELIABLE & ACCURATE information! Thanks for all your knowledge & help tractor vet.

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glennster

10-29-2007 08:54:05

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to Mike CA, 10-29-2007 08:39:08

mike your h is designed to run on a minimun of 70-72 octane gas. right from the owners manual!!

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John T

10-29-2007 07:45:27

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

Higher octane gas is refined purposely to be harder to ignite to reduce pre ignition spark knock in higher compression engines. In low compression engines (like old tractors) Theres no need or sense in using any higher octane then necessary cuz it may even leave more unburned n potentially harmful fouling deposits then the easier to ignite regular 87 octane.

As far a valve life, the lead in the old leaded gasoline helped reduce valve face n seat recession as it provided some degree of lubrication and cushioning of all the constant valve face to seat impacts, however, hardned seats has helped reduce that problem.

DONT RUN ANY HIGHER OCTANE THEN NECESSARY to stop pre ignition spark knock and unless an old tractor has had its compression raised significantly 87 should be fine.

Fer as I know its the lead or lack thereof (or substitutes) instead of the octane thats a valve saver.

John T

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the tractor vet

10-29-2007 07:48:21

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to John T, 10-29-2007 07:45:27

Best read the operating manual on 460-856 -even 504 gassers . Or do you know more then i do ?????

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the tractor vet

10-29-2007 07:23:07

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

Now lets get this stright here (1) I never said anything about burning valves with out using 93 octain . The 93 octain is REQUIRED on the later high compression gasser being it a 4 cylinder or a 6 cylinder And that is the lowest RECOMMENED FUEL REQ. for these engine as per the Factory OPERATING MANUAL. WHAT burns the exhaust valves on these tractors the lack of using the low ash oil . The 93 octain gas burns cooler and longer . The 87 burns HOT and fast and can and will cause the tops of the pistons to swell under hard loads and they can and will swell over .020 and can swell way ove that and cause the top of the piston to seeze to the sleeves or just plum melt the piston . Guys i have been down the pike way tomany times , i have first hand knolage as to what happens when ya don't fallow the game plan . Like i said a long time ago setting on my desk is a brand new Case I H piston that came out of a C291 that had around 35 hours on a total overhaul . Every pice of that engine was hand fitted by the book and ran like a swiss watch Till the fuel guy brought the wrong gas and how were we suppose to know that . Well the tractor was filled with gas drive to the field Plow was dropped in the ground and before it got to the other end she lost power and locked up . When i pulled the engine down all 6 holes were scored , all the damage was ABOVE the top ring . The pistons tops swelled over .025 , there was .004 skirt to wall clearance and the ring area of the pistons ranged from .019-.021 smaller then the skirt area . First off the pistons of today ARE NOT FORGED THE ARE CHEEP CAST alum. and can not disapate the heat off the tops as fast as the forged can . Second off when these tractors were new gas of the day plain old reg gas was 95 octain and cheep stuff was 92-93 and the cheep stuff would not run well in a old 6 cylinder chebby. When i saw what had happened in this engine from my years of working on engines i knew something was wrong with the fuel . That is when we started looking for a lab to test the gas well after looking around and many phone calls we found one and had to hand deliver a gallon of gas out of the fuel tank at the farm in a new and clean can .ANd after spending more money they told us everything we needed to know and showed us what had happened . We had paid for hightest as that is what we have always used as per the owner manual but the fuel supplier brought 87 . We never told the lab WHO's gas it was or the octain content they told us who's gas it was and what the octain level was and the chemist plum told us that that gas is not blended for a industrial engine working under extream loads. and that combustion peak heat is wa off the scale for emmission and that the gas contained MTB and that made it's owen oxygen and cause the fuel mix to lean out and anybody that has ever raced knowes that there is a fine line between leaning out a mixture for power and then going one littel step over the line and melt down. Now back to the valve issue I H had a ton of problems with the burning of Exhaust valves on the new 4-6 cylinder engines and they found that it was littel deposits of ash that came from the oil and would torch a neat little Vee in the valve and they,here again will do this in a heart beat. another lession learned the hard way As we were hard headed about oils for a long time . Now that we play the game we have not had any problems with valves by using the low ash oil yea it costs more but i don't have to be pullen heads off and doing valve jobs. We work the snot out of our gas tractors and they run like a swiss watch , they are fed 93 octain gas get the 30 weight low ash oil and reg. oil changes on time with in a couple hours and we get good service out of them. The tractors are paid for and to replace them with something newer it may be nice but since we have not hit the LOTTO and we know what we have and just going out to a sale and finding something newer your buyen something you know nothing about. ANd the last thing i need is to get the exp. of removing every nut and bolt out of one to make it what we want. I try and give GOOD info from my years of working on this stuff and help all of you get the most out of your toys .

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10-29-2007 05:31:21

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

If you real want to boost the octane go to a motorcycle or snowmobile shop and get some Klots octane booster. It will smell real nice too when it burns. I just run 87 octane gas in my stuff and have never had a problem.

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Bus Driver

10-29-2007 04:21:07

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

I do not recall reading anything on this forum that would suggest using 93 octane in older tractors. And I consider it an absolute waste of money to do so. For a history of unleaded gasoline, read about Amoco.

Amoco history

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ggg7lazy77

10-29-2007 08:22:07

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to Bus Driver, 10-29-2007 04:21:07

You must not of been on the forum for very long!! Do a search for "93 octane" in the "farmall" forum & you will find PLENTY of discussions on the topic!!!

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Bus Driver

10-29-2007 15:16:48

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-29-2007 08:22:07

Just to test the suggestion, I did use the search feature for "93 octane". It showed one reference for 2007. Plenty? Let me see if I have this straight. A tractor with about 6 to 1 compression ratio needs the same octane as a modern automobile with 10 to 1 compression ratio. That is the idea being presented here. Wonder how the farmer ran it for 40 to 60 years on lower octane gasoline? Wonder why the owner's manual from IH did not specify the 93 octane?

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ggg7lazy77

10-29-2007 20:03:37

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to Bus Driver, 10-29-2007 15:16:48

Kind of funny, I do a search & I come up with 95. Did you search in the Farmall forum?

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the tractor vet

10-29-2007 15:38:32

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to Bus Driver, 10-29-2007 15:16:48

IT does in the 706 manual under MIN. fuel req. .

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John M

10-29-2007 03:51:51

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

I just put 87 in everything, havent burnt any valves yet.

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Allan In NE

10-29-2007 01:20:53

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

Any carbureted gas engine is going to be prone to burning valves no matter what the octane.

Keep the valves adjusted correctly, keep the engine timed right on the money, warm up before hard work and always let it cool off before shutting down.

Allan

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Nat 2

10-29-2007 00:03:04

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Re: 93 octane? in reply to ggg7lazy77, 10-28-2007 22:48:44

There's only one brand I know of with 93, and that's Sunoco's Ultra. Most "premium" fuel has 92 octane. If you live in a higher elevation, you will have lower octane fuels available to you because you don't need the octane.

Use what you have available. Throw in some octane booster if it makes you feel any better. We used ~90.5 octane fuel (50/50 blend of 89 and 92 that the fuel guy made for us to help save a few dollars) in a 756 gas for years and it never burned a valve. 91 should be more than adequate.

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