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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Winter Oil

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Steve Mason

12-05-2007 08:57:24




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I posted a message a week or so ago about adding an engine heater to my 1951 C.

Many of you suggested I change my oil to a lighter weight. Currently I run non-detergent SAE 30.

I had answers like:

10w-30
15w-40
etc. My question is, what do I use?? It is my understanding that going to an oil with detegergent is going to cause me problems.

So I am confused about which weight of oil to use and what to do about the detergetn issue?

Thanks,
Steve

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Steve Mason

12-08-2007 07:31:38




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
third party image

OK - this morning I went to the Case IH dealer and got an oil pan gasket and a valve cover gasket. I took the pan and cover off to see how much sludge I had in the engine.

here's a picture of the oil pan...



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Steve Mason

12-08-2007 07:35:50




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-08-2007 07:31:38  
third party image

here's a shot of the top of the engine with the valve cover off.



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Steve Mason

12-07-2007 07:46:11




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
thanks for all the info Gentlemen! It is much appreciated.

I am still struggling with this though - I've narrowed my choices down to 15w-40 or 10w-30. Am I making too much of this? Should I just toss a coin, pick one and go?

I assume the 10w-20 is a thinner oil than the 15w-40?? Running straight 30w my tractor doesn't appear to burn much oil but she does blow some blue smoke.

Another question, hydraulic oil. My hydraulic system is not perfect. The big 40" cyclinders on my loader leak pretty good around the seals. I have not been able to identify a mfg so I have been hesitant to tear them apart for fear of not being to find any parts. I used to run IH HyTran but last summer switched to a heavier hyd oil. ISO 86 is what its called if my memeory is correct. Since running the heavier hyd oil the leaking is much less and I seem to have better response on my hydraulics. Will this stuff be OK for cold weather too? Or do I need to go back to a thinner hyd oil for winter?

I really rely a lot on this old tractor in the winter time and I don't want to screw anything up.

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Hugh MacKay

12-07-2007 18:34:13




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-07-2007 07:46:11  
Steve: You could almost flip a coin on both questions and still have the best answers. Either crankcase oil will work well in your winters. They are both quite superior to straight 30 for starting in cold weather.

That hydraulic system uses a screen as opposed to a filter. I think the heavier hydraulic oil will flow ok even in cold weather. It probably would cause some grief in a filtered system.

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Steve Mason

12-08-2007 04:33:31




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-07-2007 18:34:13  
Thanks Hugh! I"ll give the 15w-40 a go then.
I"ve got to get this done today as we"ve got some major snow headed our way this weekend.



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Hugh MacKay

12-08-2007 04:48:29




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-08-2007 04:33:31  
Steve: When your done with that snowy weather system, either send it north or south of Lake Michigan. Straight across the lake, then I have to deal with it. My snow blade is ready, but that doesn't indicate it requires use. I would be quite happy if it remained parked until April. Then, I've got some soil levelling to do.



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Bob Kerr

12-06-2007 09:20:10




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
If it has always had detergent oil, drop the pan and clean it out. There will be a lot of crud in there. My 1924 Olds doesn"t have an oil filter and never did. The book says to change the oil after 500 miles! They didn"t have detergent oil back then and the crud would settle out over night in the pan and usually stay there. The book said to drop the pan twice a year and clean it out. I bet most non detergent oil running tractors never had the pan cleaned or rarely at best. I use 10-40 in mine in winter, but I haven"t changed it yet. They run 30wt in summer and that is still in the H. It starts ok, but on a real cold morning it is slow cranking and everything like the battery and cables are in exellent shape. 10-30 or 10-40 will start easier in cold.

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georgeky

12-05-2007 20:12:18




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
Why would you need an engine heater? Many a time the C was the only thing here that would start. We used it to pull the diesels to start them to feed with. It was a 6 volt system and started every time in any temp. Everyone has different ideas about oil, but I have ran SAE 30 detergant oil in all my tractors for as long as I have ran tractors. My original owners manuals for my 84 series diesels say NOT to run multi weight oil in them. The 7610 Ford I bought new in 94 says 15W40 in summer and SAE 30 in winter. So as you see it is more an opinion thing than anything. Just make sure you use a good oil. NOT VALVOLINE. I wouldn't use it on my hoe handles. More opinions.

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Hugh MacKay

12-06-2007 05:07:02




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to georgeky, 12-05-2007 20:12:18  
George: Your right, I never had a block heater, magnetic oil pan heater, etc. for any of my C-113 or C-123 engines and I lived in a much colder climate than you. Back in the 50s, 60s and 70s we quite regularly saw -20F to -30F, yet it never stumped those little gassers, as long as they didn't have straight 30 weight oil. They did have to be started. We used to grind grain weekly with SA or 130 belt on an old plate grinder.

I remember when we saw those first British diesels here in Canada, and the first ones were not very well climatized for starting in Canadian winters. But, oh didn't the guys love them for baling hay, drilling grain, etc. I had a neighbor trade off an H and a C for two B-275 deisels, one with loader. Of course one wanted to use the loader tractor all winter, feeding, manure moving, snow moving, etc. He always claimed the best move he made was keeping his Super C. He called it his pup start for those diesels. You didn't even try the diesel if it was 0 or lower, just fire up the C-123 tow-pup start.

In summary, Steve probably isn't going to see snow much more often in western Iowa than I in SW Ontario. If he puts in a more winter friendly oil, his C will start on cold mornings roughly as often as my 130, basically every time it snows. My 130 has been doing that for years with no significant engine wear. With lighter oil a well tuned 6 volt C will be good for -40. And, Steve any time it get colder than -30F in western Iowa, you should consult with the Mrs. and snuggle for the day. What you'got to do outside at -35F, ain't that important.

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georgeky

12-06-2007 06:58:09




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-06-2007 05:07:02  
Hugh, about the coldest I ever remember here was around 27 or 28 below. In 77/78 it got down below 0 and stayed for 5 or 6 weeks with 3 feet of snow on the ground, In 81 or 82 had a couple weeks of 20 below, then in 84 it was 20+ below for a couple weeks,and again in 88 or 89 we had two weeks right before Christmas that stayed 20 to 28 below. I think around 10 below is as cold as it has been since 89, and that is cold enough for me. Our worst trouble is it will be 60 one day, and then fall off cold the next. You never know what your going to have. The old C's started every morning through all of those cool spells.A few times I had to crank it, but always started.

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Hugh MacKay

12-05-2007 18:23:59




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
Steve: I can't find much fault with the advice your getting, other than I wouldn't shy away from detergent oil. I changed my tractors years ago, ran the engines about 2 hours on the first oil, then drained it, then removed the pan. After 2 hours I had one tractor with about an inch of sluge in bottom of pan. That was 20 years ago and it's still going. Personally I wouldn't run anything but detergent oil and 15W-40 diesel grade. Over the years I've used 15W-40 diesel grade in diesel tractors, gas tractors, diesel trucks, gas trucks, 2 Oldsmobiles, 2 Buicks, even in my 4 cycle lawn mower. By the way the 4 cycle lawn mower was a 1975, and was used until last year, only thing original was the engine.

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Thack

12-05-2007 18:17:01




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
If you are using a non-detergent oil, you may have a build up of oil deposits and sludge in the engine. The detergent oil will in time clean all (or most) of the deposits and sludge from the engine and you will end up with a much cleaner engine. The detergent oil will suspend the deposits and sludge in the oil. When the oil is drained, the deposits and sludge are drained with the oil. A non-detergent oil works opposite. Sludge and other deposits are not suspended in the oil and settle to the bottom of the pan and collect around the rings. When the oil is drained there still remains oil sludge in the pan and around the rings.

The affect of using detergent oil in a dirty engine is it will give you a much cleaner engine after a couple of oil changes. It will also clean the deposits around the rings. If the engine has a lot of wear, the deposits are probably taking up a lot of the wear space. When the deposits are cleaned away with the detergent oil, you may start using or burning more oil because of the added clearances obtained from a cleaned engine. If you do make the switch, change your oil more often at first to get rid of all the crud that will come loose. The base used in non detergent oil is actually very good stuff which is why it is also used in hydraulic pumps. As to pour point, etc. Non detergent 30W acts more like 20W50...if I recall correctly.

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Andy Motteberg

12-05-2007 15:38:13




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
I use HARVEST KING All Season Engine Oil in my Tractors. It works well and can be purchased from Fleet Farm or L&M Fleet Supply.



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Steve Mason

12-05-2007 09:11:52




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
thanks guys, I'll drop the pan tonight. Do I need to get a gasket or can I use RTV to put it back together?



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dhermesc

12-05-2007 09:07:51




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
If you are concerned drop your oil pan and clean it out - only takes about 20 minutes and you'll have a better idea on the condition of your engine.

If you've been using 30W with no problems (no excessive consumption) go with 10W-30. When its cold it will have the pour quality (thickness) of 10W, when the engine heats up it will have the pour quality (thickness) of the 30W you've been using all along.

Some will claim your oil will break down or thin out using a multi weight, but that requires a lot more engine heat than what you're going to see with an IH C. Once you clean your oil pan out I'd never use nondetergent oil in that engine again.

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teddy52food

12-05-2007 10:13:30




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to dhermesc, 12-05-2007 09:07:51  
Rather than dropping the pan, I would just take off the valve cover. If it is clean in there your pan should be clean too. Use # 10 or 5w20 or 5w30 oil and it will start when it is too cold for you to be on it anyway.( If the ign system is in good shape)



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Steve Mason

12-05-2007 11:09:37




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to teddy52food, 12-05-2007 10:13:30  
thanks for the suggestion! I'll pop the valve conver and have a look!



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IH2444

12-05-2007 09:05:31




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
The only problem with using detergent oil is if you use it in an old engine that has used non detergent oil and it has a lot of crud built up in it.
In this case the detergent oil can cause the crud to come loose and cause problems. Plugging oil passages and such.



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F-Dean

12-05-2007 09:02:06




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 Re: Winter Oil in reply to Steve Mason, 12-05-2007 08:57:24  
There has been much discussion on here about detergent oil. I believe the conclusion was that there was not any problems using detergent oil such as you buy for your car. I use 10w30 from a brand name. However, you may want to search the archives to get the other opinions.



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