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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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87 or 92 Octane Gas

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Minnesotan H

12-27-2007 19:49:50




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Hello, I have a general question to those "Red" guys out there. I am an H and 450 driver. Have any of you noticed a difference in your tractors when running good old 87 octane verse the 92 octane? I have heard a mixed opinions and wanted other"s ideas/thoughts. Thanks.




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Bob Kerr

12-28-2007 09:11:17




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
I have a 51 H with firecrater pistons. It doesn"t seem to care what octane is in it. I also have a 35 F-12 that is dual fuel. Kero or gas. I put it on a dyno at a tractor show a few years back and it made the same HP on kero as it did on gas! I did have to lean the mixture out when on kero so gallons per hour used was better, but not power. I Also have a 1970 Oldsmobile 442 that is an un messed with original. That car is a good example of one that needs high octane! If I put as little as 2 gallons of 87 in the tank it will knock like crazy. I also have the timing retarded a little as it really need to run on 100 octane and 93 is just barely good enough. 100 octane was the considered ethel back then and some places even had super ethel which was around 110. Anybody remember the old Sunoco 260? It was 110 octane. Boy did that ethel smell good compared to the stuff sold now! Just for a little info , in the early days before 1918 the only gas made was white gas and it was sold for home lamps (coleman type)and stoves. It was also used in cars but the oil companys figured out they could get more gallons of auto fuel from a barrel of oil than the could get from a barrel if they made the highly refined white gas. Most cars ran fine on the cheaper stuff back then. Kerosene was also used for lamps and stoves and tractors. They also started making distillate around 1918 for tractor fuel.That stuff was cheap, way cheaper than kero and was about 2-3 cents a gallon! That is the big reason farmers used it, not because of any alleged power increase.Gas about the same time was around 10 cents and kero was about 5 cents Main thing on the tractors is if it makes spark knock, go with higher octane. My H has 150 lbs compression and doesn"t need 89 or 93, I just run 87.

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CNKS

12-28-2007 09:23:39




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Bob Kerr, 12-28-2007 09:11:17  
"I put it on a dyno at a tractor show a few years back and it made the same HP on kero as it did on gas." The IH manuals state that the engine performs best on the fuel for which it was designed. That is, while an X1 (gasoline) engine will develop more HP than a kerosene engine (other things being equal), a kerosene engine will develop less HP on gas than on kerosene, or the same as you stated.



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ChadS

12-28-2007 08:28:44




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
There is no difference in power, in fact, too much octane and not enough cyl pressure can lead to harder starting. Now E85 ethanol on the other hand, makes a noticable difference!! If that 560 gas, if the cyl pressure is over 170 psi, it needs a higher octane fuel,,,, ChadS ChadS3@hotmail.com



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KEB1

12-28-2007 07:54:49




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
Did a little research a while back regarding use of high octane fuel in my old Willys pickup. Thought poeple might be interested in the basic physics.

The idea is that when the fuel/air mixture is ignited in the cylinder, it takes a finite amount of time for the flame front to propagate through the mixture. If the flame moves through the mixture too fast, it'll cause knock. If the flame moves too slow, you'll lose power because maximum pressure occurs after the piston is already partway down.

Higher compression provides greater pressure and therefore more power for a given displacement, however, higher compression also increases the speed at which the flame front propagates through the mixture. This increased flame propagation speed also makes the engine want to knock, meaning we can't advance the spark far enough to obtain maximum power.

That's also why an engine is more likely to knock on heavy acceleration - more charge in the cylinder equal higher pressure equal faster flame propagation.

To counter this effect, octane boosters (originally tetra-ethyl lead, hence the term "ethyl" for high test gas) actually slow down the rate at which the flame propagates through the mixture, essentially offsetting the increased propagation speed from higher compression and allowing ignition timing to be set for maximum power.

However, in a low compression engine, the flame front already propagates relatively slowly due to the low compression, and higher octance reduces the speed even more. The net result is that the mixture takes too long to burn resulting in reduced performance.

Keith

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John T

12-28-2007 08:15:05




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to KEB1, 12-28-2007 07:54:49  
Keith, WOW, Great info, Ima thinkin that article n my non technical post is in basic agreement, that use of the necesary higher octane in a higher compression engine is, of course, an advantage buttttt ttt use of higher octane then necessary in a lower compression engine can even be detrimental wooooo o hooooo oo lol

John T



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IH2444

12-28-2007 08:31:48




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to John T, 12-28-2007 08:15:05  
Tractors I am not sure about.
In my old subaru, the higher octane gas does give me more power and enough better mileage to offset the higher cost of Premium gas.



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dhermesc

12-28-2007 08:29:45




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to John T, 12-28-2007 08:15:05  
"that use of the necesary higher octane in a higher compression engine is, of course, an advantage buttttt ttt use of higher octane then necessary in a lower compression engine can even be detrimental"


Agreed.

The only way to take advantage of the power POTENTIAL of high octane is to have a high compression engine (8.8:1 compression ratio or higher) in a vacuum advance inginition system. However, even that is debateable in modern vehicles.

My 3.0 Duratech engine has a 10:1 compression ratio with electronic controlled ignition. I have noticed no differance in mileage or power when using the 91 octane instead of Ford's recomended 87 octane.

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John T

12-28-2007 05:35:14




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
Minn H, UNLESS the tractor has very high compression to the point high octane fuel is required to prevent pre ignition n spark knock I SEE NO REASON OR BENEFIT TO BE GAINED FROM HIGHER OCTANE GAS THEN NECESSARY.... In fact it may even be detrimental in my opinion. Higher octane gas is necessarily by design n formualtion HARDER TO IGNITE n has a certain controlled burn rate n Id rather do a good job of igniting n completely burning the fuel versus it being left as unspent residue n maybe more carbon deposits....

NOWWWWW if she has high compression you need that high octane gas and can gain improvement with more compression n resulting HP PROVIDED you burn the higher octane fuel so she isnt pre igniting..... ..

Sooooo o "Thats my story n Ima stickin to it" lol

Take care yall

John T

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dej(jed)

12-28-2007 04:54:51




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
The only time I have noticed a difference is when I use 87 in my Harley. It runs real sluggish. Some of you guys can't be for real.
45% DIESEL FUEL AND IT RUNS REAL GOOD? THIS HAS TO BE THE TALL TALES BOARD.



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Ron Weber

12-28-2007 11:34:08




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to dej(jed), 12-28-2007 04:54:51  
My Farmall Regulars were designed to fun on distillant oil. I start them up on gas and close up the radiator until I get them hot then shift over to the 40-55-5% mixture. You do want to switch back to pure gas or run them out of fuel in the carb before you shut them off otherwise they start really hard.



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Andy Martin

12-28-2007 10:21:45




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to dej(jed), 12-28-2007 04:54:51  
Try it before you doubt it.

The dual fuel engines run real well on straight diesel once you get them hot.



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Andy Martin

12-28-2007 04:00:15




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
When diesel was cheaper we'd mix 10% to 15% diesel with the gas and get good performance.

I hadn't thought of filtering used motor oil but at $3.00 a gallon for gas that would be an environmentally friendly way to get rid of the old motor oil.



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John M

12-28-2007 13:38:30




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Andy Martin, 12-28-2007 04:00:15  
You could never filter used oil enough to get out all of the particles to be able to burn used oil. If you didnt care about your engine them by all means, try it.



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Up North Louie

12-28-2007 03:20:06




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
Wow... how far up the totem pole would you go with such a mixture? Would any of this apply to a '58 560?

From what I have read, this seems almost reminiscent of "distillate," or "tractor fuel".

Louie



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gene bender

12-28-2007 05:59:03




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Up North Louie, 12-28-2007 03:20:06  
Your 560 should run 87 just fine.



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Hugh MacKay

12-28-2007 03:02:17




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
I've used the ocasional can of 93 and didn't think the tractors worked as well as they do on 87, definitely not any better. When these old Farmalls were designed and built octane was even lower than 87.

I think this is one of those situations whereby less expensive is better. I've even considered doing with my SA and 130, very similar to what Ron is describing. Hadn't thought of the heating oil, but was thinking of trying kero, however that wouldn't save any money at todays prices.

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Allan In NE

12-28-2007 03:27:03




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Hugh MacKay, 12-28-2007 03:02:17  
Amen to that.

Every time I see this topic come up it makes me smile.

Back when these tractors came out there was no such thing as "high test" fuel. Don't think it even was around until the early 60s sometime.

There "might have been" two pumps at any given gas station. One was for gasoline and the other was for gasoline also. :>)

Read yeasterday where a fellow said he had bought this or that at a TSC store back in the sixties.

Doubt it. :>)

Allan

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randy hall

12-28-2007 09:28:32




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Allan In NE, 12-28-2007 03:27:03  
allan, if TSC means tractor supply company i have a '63 catalog that is their twentyfifth anniversery they stated their catalog in '38.



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RustyFarmall

12-28-2007 08:48:02




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Allan In NE, 12-28-2007 03:27:03  
Back in the 60s that store was called Tractor Supply. It only recently became TSC, but it is the same store, and back in the fifties and sixties you could actually buy tractor parts there. Today the only things you will find at TSC is dog food and horse blankets.



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LA in Wi.

12-28-2007 07:01:08




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Allan In NE, 12-28-2007 03:27:03  
Allan,

My dad had a 1948 "98" Oldsmobile. That was the deluxe model, about like the Buick Roadmaster. The "98" had a straight 8 engine and had to burn high test, but in those days, the 1940s and 1950s, it was called "Ethyl". I can still hear my dad pulling up to the gas pumps and telling the attendant to "fill "er up with Ethyl". (No self serve in those days.) The mid-range Olds were called "88" and even a low cost one called "76" I think....that one had a 6 cyl engine. There was just the 2 basic gasolines; Ethyl and Regular. No signs on the pumps those days telling what the octane was, from what I recall. He had that 98 up until about "58. Olds brought out the high-compression "Rocket 88" V8 and Rocket "98" V8 in 1949 and always heard that those V8s had to burn Ethyl, but might have just been bragging stories. Funny how people always think higher octane means more power. T"ain"t so.

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HENRY E NC

12-28-2007 09:31:00




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to LA in Wi., 12-28-2007 07:01:08  
Now you are talking about my era. My first car was a 42 olds and after the war my dad had a 48 98 olds and in either car we would pull into the gas station and flip them a dollar and tell the attendant----10 gals ethyl please. the only low test we used was for the farm tractors. All the rest of the cars ran on ethyl. I do remember filling the International truck from the farm tank during the WWII.

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billde

12-28-2007 05:10:07




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Allan In NE, 12-28-2007 03:27:03  
TSC was started up in 1938 it is very possible to have bought something in the sixties.



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LenND

12-28-2007 12:52:22




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to billde, 12-28-2007 05:10:07  
The original Tractor Supply store was started in Minot, N.D. in 1938. The original building is still standing but not owned by TSC anymore (I don't think) Usually their catalog has a picture of this building inside their cover somewhere.



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Allan In NE

12-28-2007 05:37:40




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to billde, 12-28-2007 05:10:07  
All those little towns west of Minot; Stanley, Ross, Ray.

Always figured some pioneer had a wagonload of kids and they just fell off one by one as he was going west. :>)

Allan



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LenND

12-28-2007 12:57:11




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Allan In NE, 12-28-2007 05:37:40  
More than likely it was some Great Northern official who had all those kide to drop off when he was laying out the line in the 1800's. LOL Len



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Hugh MacKay

12-28-2007 04:57:08




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Allan In NE, 12-28-2007 03:27:03  
Allan: I did a bit of searching on TSC last fall, mainly I wanted to see how TSC product lines compared in Canada and the US. Didn't find what I was looking for, however I did notice when they were established, forget the figures, but it was definitely since the 60S.

We've also made tremendous progress on that gasoline issue.



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Ron Weber

12-28-2007 00:19:37




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
On my Farmall Regulars, I have been running 40% 87 octane gas, 55% Old heating oil, and 5% filtered used motor oil. I find a big difference in power and the engine seems to run free-er. I cut all my wood by buzz saw, and this difference is noticable. Other than that I have used the E85 stuff and it runs very well.



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old

12-27-2007 21:38:18




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
I run the cheapest stuff I can buy and have for years. Only time the high octane stuff does any good is if you have a high compression engine



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georgeky

12-27-2007 20:30:05




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 Re: 87 or 92 Octane Gas in reply to Minnesotan H, 12-27-2007 19:49:50  
I run the cheap stuff at all times in mine. I tried 93 once for pulling, and the tractor didn't run any better or stronger, so I have never tried it again. The relatively low compression is better with lower octane gas in my opinion.



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